Table Of ContentInterview
“ Women make unique
contributions all the time. ”
Lieutenant General Chris Whitecross
and Ret. Major General Simone Wilkie
on female leaders in armed forces
No. 2 | July 2020
The views expressed in Metis Interviews are those of the interviewees. They do not reflect the opinion
of the Bundeswehr, the Federal Ministry of Defence, or the Bundeswehr University Munich.
Metis Interview | No. 2
Female leaders in armed forces – Chris Whitecross & Simone Wilkie
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Fig. 1 The first German female medical officers on 1 October 1975 with Minister of Defence Georg Leber
In a landmark ruling in 2000 the German armed forces were opened for women to
serve in all branches. As of today, the proportion of women is at a good 12 per cent.
This interview offers future female military leaders in the Bundeswehr encouragement
and some p erspective from two highly distinguished senior female military leaders, Retired
Australian Major G eneral Simone Wilkie and Canadian Lieutenant General Chris W hitecross.
The interview was conducted online by Metis Director Prof. Dr. Carlo Masala in July 2020.
A video recording is available on the Metis website. This transcript was slightly redacted.
Masala is an international youth movement had been at University studying to
What was your personal motivation that you’re probably aware of and it be a physical education teacher and
for joining the armed forces and resonated with me. It resonated with someone had spoken to me about
what is your experience overall? me in terms of the lifestyle, the cul- it, so I went along to the recruiting
ture, the background, the structure agency. And like quite a lot of people
Whitecross and the hierarchical way that they I joined for the sort of patriotic rea-
First of all, I just finished 38 years of did business, and I just really wanted sons, for something that I thought
service. I joined the military really to give it a go. I was at Queens Uni- that I could contribute not only to
right from University. So, I pretty versity and I was walking down the the nation, but also to help people.
much grew up in the military, from street, literally, I saw the recruiting But if I was to suggest it was a long
the age of 19 right to today. But my centre and I walked in. And that was and detailed search and that I had
motivation for joining military right 38 years ago. landed on my feet that would be
at the beginning was that my father totally incorrect. Indeed, after about
was military, my uncle was military, Wilkie three months in training to be an of-
my grandfather had seen service, all To be really frank, I was incredi- ficer I disliked it so much that I tried
of my brothers were in the reserves, bly naive when I joined the army. I to resign and return to University.
and I liked what they personified. I didn’t have a particularly good un- I hadn’t told my parents, and when
joined the Cadet Movement, which derstanding of what was involved. I the commanding officer rang my
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Metis Interview | No. 2
Female leaders in armed forces – Chris Whitecross & Simone Wilkie
father, he said: “ Look we can leave Whitecross
her here or send her back to Ballarat. ” I think a diversity of o pinion
To which my father said: “ Leave
her there, she will like it eventually. ” leads to a better series of
He was right, and I was completely
wrong. So it took me a little while to solutions to a problem.
enjoy it. But my experiences were: it
was incredibly challenging, physi-
cally and mentally, so you really get
to understand your own personal
boundaries. You have an amazing
opportunity to learn about people
and about leadership. And particu-
larly to learn through example, in Masala thinking outside the box and the like.
both trying and not so trying circum- Do you consider female military But I think the strength here is a mil-
stances. I’m a bit of an extrovert, so leadership to be different in any itary force of men and women, and
I really enjoy being with people and way from male military leadership? it’s not just men and women, right,
you certainly have plenty of opportu- Are there contributions that because gender is no longer binary,
nities for do that in the military. women are better suited to make? it’s all about diversity and inclusive-
The last point I would make is that ness. Because what it does for you in
I think you’ll find your experiences at Whitecross the grander scheme of things in the
the different rank levels can be quite I think it would be naive to say that utopian society is, it offers people a
different. What you do as a young men and women are the same. I far better solution set. Since now you
officer versus what you do at the op- mean, ideally we would like to think have a number of people with differ-
erational level to what you can do at that we all do the same things and I ent backgrounds, different languages,
the strategic level are quite different. think we probably come to the same different cultures, different ethnic-
Sometimes you’re actually better in decisions in many ways, but we ities and they are coming together
one level of leadership than you are come to them from different vantage to solve a problem. I think a diversity
in others. Fortunately, I must have points. Men’s and women’s strengths of opinion leads to a better series of
been OK to get to be a major general. and weaknesses are fundamentally solutions to a problem. So, are the
But it’s a long way from where I start- different in many ways. We may not leadership attributes different? I think
ed. You know: I thought I would be be as physically strong but we are tre- in many, many ways, they are the
lucky to be a captain! So, my experi- mendously talented when it comes to same, such as the ability to commu-
ences were generally very good. team building and doing things and nicate, intellectual, cognitive ability
Women are All medical corps European Court More than 22.000
prohibited from careers are opened of Justice ruling female soldiers serve
joining the military for women in the Bundeswehr
All branches are
except for the
opened to female
Bundeswehr’s c ivilian
volunteers
administration
1955 1975 1991 1996 2000 2001 2019
First female medical Tanja Kreil applies for Women cannot be
officers (Fig. 1) becoming a soldier drafted
Fig. 2 The path to equality. | Data source: Bundeswehr
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Female leaders in armed forces – Chris Whitecross & Simone Wilkie
and all those sorts of things. But ulti- that women can have more than men children behind. ” And I had the im-
mately it’s about bringing a disparate make them more effective. pression that I was almost allowed
group of people together and then The last point I would make is that to express that opinion, whereas my
having them come to a shared value I think sometimes women, when they male counterparts were not.
system and a shared common goal start out as young leaders, can tend But by increasing the number
and then moving toward that. I think to follow the rules a little too pre- of men and women in a group, the
men and women may come about scriptively. I used to be a bit like that conversations change and I think the
that in different ways, but by putting and now I subscribe to the “rules are personality changes. And it’s not any
women and men together you are for fools and the guidance of wise different in terms of the military capa-
going to get a far better solution. old chicks.” Which means you work bility but what it does is it brings peo-
out when the rules are appropriate ple closer together and it shows real
Wilkie and when they’re not appropriate. sympathy for what you have left be-
I think part of that goes to the theory And the more rank you get, the more hind and all that kind of stuff. That’s
around leadership. There are certain- chance you have to stand next to the certainly on a personal note.
ly different leadership styles and dif- big, hairy, difficult questions and so, if But in terms of our engagement
ferent leadership attributes. I would you’ve learned to be more adaptable with the local population, absolute-
suggest that leadership 101 remains and not always follow those rules, ly. When I was in Afghanistan, the
the same. For me that’s about three then potentially your leadership style culture didn’t necessarily encourage
things which is setting the direction, will be highly effective in the different women speaking to men in terms of
setting the expectations and setting environments that you could be find- strangers, but in the Canadian con-
the environment. ing yourself in. text where we had female combat
I think a lot of women can lead team leaders, female infantry officers,
somewhat differently to men. Even artillery and armoured officers, they
said, there are different approaches Masala could actually go into a communi-
to leadership amongst women as In your deployments abroad, did ty and speak to the men and the
well. Like one of my best friends, who your gender make a difference? women. They could speak to the men,
is a Brigadier, has a completely differ- I mean for instance regarding your because the men didn’t feel necessar-
ent leadership style to mine, but still contact with the local population? ily that the women were all that much
a very effective one. What I would say more different. But they certainly had
is that women are much better at the Whitecross an avenue to speak to the women in
C-words. They’re good at compassion I would say absolutely, and I would the community. And so they were
and consensus and collaboration and say even to the units as well. Let me getting a sense of the human cost, of
cooperation. There tends to be a little break that down a little bit. I think to the decisions that were being made.
more empathy. So perhaps what they have men and women in the units, They could get human intelligence,
can bring to leadership roles some- it lends a different personality to they could understand the social
times that not all men do, and I’m not that units’ structure. Let me use an fabric of the communities and they
suggesting that men aren’t good lis- example: In a unit you have moth- could really get a sense of where the
teners, but it’s perhaps a more demo- ers and fathers, of course, and I can battle is going. They could embrace
cratic style of leadership with people remember going to Afghanistan or the community a lot more I think in
being more inclusive. even Bosnia and somebody saying to many ways. And it’s no different than
And of course, one of the things me: “ It must be terrible to leave your if someone in your unit speaks the
that you can’t see is cognitive diver- children behind as a mother. ” And local language. So, having men and
sity. You can see gender diversity and my comment was: “ You know what: women in an organisation I think, it’s
race diversity. And perhaps if women It is terrible as a parent to leave your such a force enabler.
are being socialised differently, they
think about things differently and po-
tentially lead in different ways. I think
if you look across business, most Wilkie
boards in Australia that have women A lot of the locals felt far less
are more successful than the ones
that only include men. There’s a lot threatened by having women
of research out there that suggests
that some of those leadership traits, coming to talk to them and find-
ing out what their issues were.
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Female leaders in armed forces – Chris Whitecross & Simone Wilkie
Fig. 3 Germany 2020: Female soldiers in uniform have become a common sight.
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Metis Interview | No. 2
Female leaders in armed forces – Chris Whitecross & Simone Wilkie
Wilkie Certainly, when I was in Afghani- Masala
It was different in each of the lo- stan as the National Commander for According to your experience
cations that I went to. When I was all of our Australian troops, I was reg- abroad, is there a unique
in Cambodia in the early 90s for ularly meeting with the Minister for contribution that only women
example, the Pakistani battalion Defence and a raft of male leaders can make to peacekeeping
was providing defensive support from governments and from other operations?
to the signallers. I was the adjutant countries and I didn’t have any is-
in one of the remote locations and sues at that stage. So, I suppose it Whitecross
went to visit our signallers. They depends, quite frankly, on the cir- I mean for a whole bunch of reasons,
had been having some problems cumstances. That said, in the local I am sure that you’re aware of, the
with the Pakistani soldiers. So they area, the female engagement teams, obvious one is that the non-mili-
asked me to go and represent them which we employed from Australia, tary, the people on the ground that
and have a discussion. I said sure. they were highly effective with the are affected by the hostilities: the
I turned up with a male sergeant locals. And I think part of the secret vulnerable people – predominantly
and they were not interested in lis- sauce for that is that a lot of the lo- women, children and the elderly –
tening to me even though I was a cals felt far less threatened by hav- are more apt to go see a woman in
captain. So I learned pretty quickly ing women coming to talk to them uniform than a man. They could be
that I needed to pass on my points and finding out what their issues frightened, they could be embar-
through the male sergeant. Now were. They were more forthcoming rassed and a whole slew of other
that’s a cultural issue, and this is in discussing or even having the op- reasons. So, it’s about having that
one of the key areas I think that we portunity to engage with military ability to be able to speak to some-
need to be cognisant of when you members. And of course, in some one in uniform and to know that
go on deployments. What is the en- countries where you go to, they are their concerns are coming into the
vironment that you are going into? war-torn, people have been terrified. decision-making construct of the
It could be very different to the The last thing they really want to do operational planning.
country that you come from. How is sit down and talk with male sol- Let me use an example: I am an en-
much culturally aware are you, how diers. So I think there can be some gineer, right. Engineers and bridges is
do you adapt your style and your really interesting opportunities from a great example. Say there is a free-
processes? that perspective. dom of movement issue in the local
12.30 %
10.74 %
9.00 %
4.53 %
1.43 %
0.77 %
0.20 %
0.00 %
1975 1985 1995 2000 2005 2010 2015 2019
Fig. 4 Percentage of female Bundeswehr soldiers from 1975 – 2019 as of 1/2020 (values rounded). | Data source: SOWI; Bundeswehr; Deutscher Bundestag
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Metis Interview | No. 2
Female leaders in armed forces – Chris Whitecross & Simone Wilkie
community. If we only dealt with we currently have an Australian mil- incredibly useful. But sometimes
the operational necessities of being itary policewoman in Cyprus. Some- those styles have to be evaluated
able to create a bridge in an area times I think those less assertive differently. When is the most appro-
that would allow the military forc- leadership styles can be very valu- priate time to be a caretaker or taking
es to go do what they needed to do,
that would not necessarily meet the
needs of the community. So by being
able to engage with the community, Whitecross
being able to speak to the vulnera- Personally, I joined the mili-
ble populations, to the women, to
the mothers, to the children even tary because I wanted to do
and to understand where they need
that particular bridge to be built so something that was above me,
that they can go to the medical clin-
ics, they can go to do the shopping, I like to say: “service before self.”
they can go to the mosque or to their
churches, the schools, all those sort of
things, that can be put into the oper-
ational planning. That actually leads
to better engagement with the local
population, better relationships with
them. A whole slew of positive attrib-
utes come out just from that one little able in an environment where peo- charge? In the toxic environment of
decision-making because we engage ple have been traumatised. Or living peacekeeping operations, you need
the local community. through incredibly difficult circum- to lead with empathy. Perhaps there
I would say that in many ways stances. Some of those democratic is a natural advantage for women. It’s
women who are afraid, having leadership styles and tendencies I difficult because you cannot general-
that ability to go speak to another talked about before, I think can be ise. I know some women who have no
woman, particularly empathy whatsoev-
a woman in uniform, er. So, each to their
or even a woman own circumstances.
in uniform who has
some authority, I
think will give them Masala
the ability to feel as Based on your
though their voices experience, how
Soldiers Officers
are being heard and can the military
5.389 5.837
that they are going 24 % 26 % inspire young
to be taken care of. women to join
and to serve?
Wilkie
I think women make Whitecross
unique contribu- Inspiring is an in-
Non-commissioned
tions all the time. Officers (NCO) teresting word, be-
But of course, there without Portepee cause in many ways
are factors that sit 3.522 Non-commissioned it’s self-motivating,
15 % Officers (NCO)
around that social- with Portepee right? Personally, I
isation piece that I 7.949 joined the military
was talking about 35 % because I wanted to
before. To the best do something that
of my knowledge, was above me, I like
we have had two to say: “service be-
female generals fore self.” This might
running UN Peace- Fig. 5 Distribution of ranks amongst female Bundeswehr soldiers sound a little bit
(including candidates) as of 1/2020. | Data source: Bundeswehr
keeping missions, trite, but I wanted
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Metis Interview | No. 2
Female leaders in armed forces – Chris Whitecross & Simone Wilkie
to serve my county, I wanted to do women. Now that wasn’t necessar- think they “can’t be what they can’t
good. I wanted to go into areas of the ily the case when I first joined. But I see“. I personally dislike that say-
world where I knew that I could effect knew that I could do something that ing. I think if that was the case we
change or act as a sort of positive in- would make me feel good about my- wouldn’t have Angela Merkel and a
fluence. Inspiration, it comes from the self and about my country in the con- raft of other wonderful women who
person. To inspire people to join the struct that I was at. Now, militaries all have led across all sorts of different
military, first of all you have to have over the world are opening up more areas because they have been the
trailblazers. But it needs to be visible.
Great campaigns, by advertising, ex-
cellent recruiting campaigns. We’ve
Wilkie tried all sorts of different campaigns
in Australia. Look, it is more diffi-
“ What normally happens is:
cult to attract women compared to
men because it’s a very physical role,
We design the system for men and then we
particularly in the army and it does
include combat, which doesn’t ap-
try and retrofit it for women as opposed to
peal to a lot of girls. They certainly
haven’t been socialised at home to
design it specifically for women. We’re only
be brought up like that. And it can be
quite competitive. Part of it is break-
just starting to do that in the Australian
ing down the stigma and the sort of,
what I would call the “ Hollywood
Army for some of our combat equipment.
B-grade movie versions” of what
people think military service is and
And we’ve had women in roles like the
how that impacts women.
So I would advise to send people
one I did in Cambodia for nearly 30 years.
around to the schools, share your
stories, be transparent about what
So hopefully you’ll be faster than us. ”
the opportunities are. Particularly so
that you can get those experienced
leading at a much earlier age. Once
you become an officer or an NCO 1,
then you can succeed in just about
any other organisation, certainly
strong leadership, you need to be and more occupations to women. in Australia, and I know that to be
able to go out there, you need to be And we need to get that message out. true in many other countries. If we
able to communicate: What does the It’s not just about being an infanteer are talking about leadership, why
military do for the construct of socie- or being a fighter pilot, it’s also about not use that as one of the real TICE
ty? What would that give you in terms being a dentist or a lawyer or an en- tests 2 for people. If you want to have
of personal satisfaction and personal gineer or a vehicle tech. The options a career this is a great opportunity
awareness? And also, to really speak are numerous. So it’s education, it’s for you to start. Invariably, if you can
about the opportunities that being inspiring leadership and it’s engage- get people to join much like myself,
a military member will give you. And ment at all levels of society. they will stay. And then, if you’re
from that you hope that you garner fortunate, the ones who really were
enough that the people feel inspired Wilkie not suited because they hadn’t done
themselves to be able to actually take I think there’s plenty of ways we enough research or they just realised
that one step to learn a little bit more can do that. I would start with sim- later on it wasn’t what they thought
about it and to possibly sign up for ple things like sending role models it would be, they will self-select not
it. I think there is a fallacy out there to schools. Some young women to be there.
around the world, particularly in
western nations, where women don’t
really understand where they fit in
the military construct. And that’s un-
1 NCO = non-commissioned officer.
fortunate. In the Canadian construct,
of course, all occupations are open to 2 TICE test = test of interpersonal competence for employment.
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