Table Of ContentTowards an Indian Orchestra:
Interview with Vishnudas Shirali
B.C.DEVA
Presented hue isan edited transcript ofthe interview conducted on 12March 1974by B.C.Deva, then
AssutanJSecretaryoftheSangeetNalakAkademi.M:;rhVishnudasShirali.eminentmusicianandmusicdirector.
Thetranscriptofthediscurslvecom'errol;o"bet'ri't't7Zlhet'MIOhasbuneditedforthepurposeofpublication.
R.C. Deva: Pandit Shirali, I must first congratulate you on receiving the Sangeet Natak
Akademi'sAward for CreativeMusic.Thisawardhasaspecialsignificance becauseyou
are the first to havebeenawarded for something off the track ofHindustani or Camatic
classical music. For lack of a better word we have called it creative music though, of
course,allmusiciscreative.Iwould liketotalktoyouaboutthenewtrendsandwhatyou
feel about them.The first question that Iwould like to ask you is: what do youthink of
the attitude to Indian music outside the country.and theeffect ofWestern musicon us?
VishnudasShirali:Overthe lastquartercentury,Indian music hasgainedquiteanappre
ciable audienceoutside India.Anumber oftopmusicianshave beengiving musicperfor
mances,teachingIndianmusicindifferentuniversities.andgivinglecture-demonstrations
abroad, There has been a lot of cultural exchange at university level, and a number of
scholarships have been given by foreign educational institutions for studyingdance and
music in India.More and more studentsand professors fromabroad havecome to India
to learn and do research work in Indian fine arts. On their return to their countries they
have helped to create, directly and indirectly, a more favourable attitude to our music
through their talksand perfomances.
Formerly, during 1930-39, when we weretouring Europe, U.S.A. and Canada with
Uday Shankar's company ofdancers arid musicians, the conditions were entirely differ
ent Ours was asortofpioneeringwork.
Deva:Yes,Iremember.
Shirali: The attitudeto our musicat thattimewas more ofcuriositythanunderstanding,
especiallyduring 1930-34,theinitialyears.Buttheyfeltenthusiasticandwanted to learn
howtoappreciateourdance andmusic.Theirears were notaccustomedtoourmusic.Our
frequent visits to these countries for nine years, giving dance and music performances.
paved the wayforourdancersandmusicians to go abroadin thepost-independenceperi
od and giveperformancesindependently.This isnot asmallachievement.
SangulNeuakNo.110:October- December1993
TOWARDSANINDIANORCHESTRA 15
Deva:Ithashelped the new generation agreatdeal. Now Iwould like to ask youabout
theeffectofWestern music on us.
Shirali:Itisabigfield.Youknowthai therearequiteanumberofmusiciansinourcoun
try whohavestudiedWesternmusicandwealso havesomeexcellentperformingartists.
Thereisquite alargeaudience in ourcountrywho understandandappreciateWestern
classical music. More widely, theeffectof Westernmusic is foundverymuch in our
commercialfilms.Itisnotformetosaywhetheritisdesirableorotherwise.Butwemust
admit thatourcommercial filmindustryhas affordedagreatscopeto musicians. music
arrangersandtofilmmusicdirectors whoaretrainedinWestern music.Asformyself,I
verymuchenjoylistening to thesymphony,although IhavenotstudiedmuchofWestern
music.ButItrained my earsto appreciateWestern classicalmusic. byattending agreat
manymusicconcertsduring mynine-yearstayabroad.
Deva: Iquite agree that the films have taken up Western music andthey do usea lotof
tonecolourand tonemassandsuchthings whichwenormallydonotgetinIndianclas
sicalmusic.Butwhatreally ison my mind is the problemoforchestration.I would like
toknowwhether orchestrationofragasispossibleat all.
Shirali:I feel that orchestration ofragas, i.e.orchestration in Indian classical music, is
possibleandtoacertain extent,canbepermissible.Iforchestrationmeans instrumental
soundsofvarious timbre andtonesblended incharacteristic combination,to produce a
varietyoftonecolour.itispossibletohaveharmonyinourmusic.When Isayharmony,
weshouldnottake theword asmeaningexactlywhatitisintheWest.Generally,Iwould
say, it means forming a sort of counterpoint achieved through the superimposition of
melodicpassages with different groups of musical instruments. Inaddition to theparent
melody,anumberofmini-melodies couldbeplacedinthecomposition.asifwere, hav
ingallthecharacteristics oftheparent melody,butstillpossessing adistinctly individual
qualityoftheirown.Inaddition,onecanportray fourseparatemovementsbyvaryingpat
ternsbasedonasthayi, amara, sanchari andabhog. Therecouldalso be variousother
methodsofevolvingan Indiansystem of orchestration.In the experimentalstage,itmay
beeasiertouse ragas selectedfrom the 12-notescale,so that wedon'tcomeunder the
.influenceofSrutis, Ragas based on the 12-nore scale do not use the Srutis. A tempered
scaletherefore gives scope forcreating identical intervals,inanychordfrom onepointof
ISsue,and simplifies the placing of chords from the key note to another. Later, perhaps,
~e~ayexperimentwithragasusing the22-Srutiscale.SincetheSrutiintervalsarenon
IdentIcal,the22-Sruliscale limits the placementof chords from one key notetoanother.
Deva: Yes.It isavery importantpoint.
ShiraH:When shifting ofkey is applied to give colour to the composition, the relation
?"t~een
thechanged key and the valuationofothernotes willautomatically change and
rtWIllsound outoftune due to the incorrect Sruti relation, especiallyfor our audiences
andourmusicians.
Deva:Indeed. .
16 B.C.DEVA
Shirali: Itisaknown factthat thecontinuous sounding ofthekeynote,orthedrone, is
thebasisofourmusicandagainstthis,theshiftingofkey istriedoutwithinacertainlimit.
Naturally,constantvigilancewill benecessarytomaintaintheSrutirelation withthekey
noteifand when it isshifted. The shiftingofkey need not necessarilybe there; itmaybe
employedonly when one feels like it.
Now comesthequestion of harmony, Introduction of harmony as understood in the
Westwilldepriveourmusicofitsmostnotable andunique feature. Thisisnotmerelyan
issueofprestigebutamatterofspiritandcharacterofourmusic,andIwouldratherstrict
ly adhere toit.Conflictsbetweenthenewandwhatisconsidered traditionalhasexisted
ineveryformofart, anditischaracteristicofeachepoch.Fromsuchconflictemergesa
fresh type of art basedon the traditional system, but embracing, assimilating and giving
shapeandform tothenewtrends. Therefore, Ifeel,orchestration inIndianmusicand,to
acertain extent, ofragas, couldbeperrnissible andpossiblebecauseofitsvastscopeto
expresshumanemotionsthroughadifferentmedium. ButIwouldlike to make one point
clear, thatourclassicalmusicshouldremainintact, untouchedbyanymodemandexter
nalmusicalinfluence. EvenifIshouldcomeunderthisinfluence,Imustbestopped...
Deva: Pretty honest, Imust say!
Shirali:Andorchestrationandorchestralmusicshouldbetreatedasanindependentmedi
urnofexpression, togrowalongwithourtraditional aspect.
Deva: Ah, good!
Shirali: I am sure that after many years of trial and error, we shouldbe able to evolvea
techniquefromourexperimentsinthisdirectionandgraduallyanIndianorchestraltradi
tion may be built. Our music has greatpotentialfor development along orchestral lines.
Givenproper understanding andopportunities fordevelopment, it canblossom as an
extraordinary medium of expression withinfinitescope forvariety basedon materials
accumulatedthroughthecenturies.
Deva: I shouldsay ithas been a very refreshingpointofview on the problemoforches
tration. Beforetaking upotherpoints,Iwouldlike toask you one thing. Asfar asIunder
stand theWestern musicalmaterial, itisgenerally dividedintopuremusicandthepro
grammatic. I would like you to tell me whether programmatic music is possible with
Indianragas.
ShiraIi: Yes,Iwouldsayitispossible.Asyou know, inthe 1920sleadingmusiciansused
tosing aKhayal for one-and-a-halfhoursortwo hours, and the durationofaconcertused
tobethe whole night. Present-day concertsgenerallylasthardlyfourhours. Still further,
All India Radio allots only one-and-a-halfhours for a full concert. And this, too, gives
scope forthe musiciantoexhibithis talentsand providesafairly full entertainmenttothe
listener. This means 40 minutesfor a VilambitKhayal, 20minutesfor a DrutKhayal, 15
minuteseach for aTaranaandThumri.Inotherwords,thepresent-dayartisthasadjusted
himselfand shortened the exposition ofa raga and the Khayal to the requirement. This
process may gradually lead to programmatic music in Indian ragas. It couldbecome an
exampleoftheessenceofaragaperformedby ahighlytrainedand talentedvocalistoran
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samepassagesandimprovisation.ButwehavetorememberthatnomatterhowmuchWe
haveprogrammaticmusic.inoursystemthecharacteristicinspirationalextemporeimpro-
visationofaragacannotbereplaced.Onemay callmeold-fashioned, butthis willremain
soforafew musicallydrugged listeners likeus who wouldnotmind anyamountoftime
takenbyan A-classmusician toelaborate aragawithnumerousanddelicatevariations.
Deva:Quiteright.ButorchestrationisamajornewforcethathascomeintoIndianmusic.
Nopartofhumanlife orcreation is everstatic. So. while one neednotbe afraidofnew
influences. thequestion is whethersomething new ishealthyforus.orwhether itwill
destroywhat wethinkisa beautiful music thatwe havegrown up with.
Shirafi:True.While all thatisold is notgold,all thatisnewisnotnecessarily beautiful.
Deva:Thatis whatwe have to find out,especially from yousinceyouhave been associ
atedwiththeclassicaltradition and you have also strucka new path.Irememberthe film
Kalpana, of which, if am not mistaken, you were the music director.I don't know how
manytimesIsawitandIstill have therecordsathome.Iwouldthereforeliketogetmore
ofyourviewsonthissubjectoforchestrationandharmony,Doesitnecessarilyimplytern
peringandtransposition? Canharmonybereally takenovertoragas?
Shirali: It isa vel)' difficult question. But, in short, Ican say that we should not think in
Westernterms or of Western orchestra. We think now of an Indian orchestra Though we
haveadopteditfromtheWest,wehave changedit:whether togoodorbadisadifferentthing.
EveninwithWest,inthebeginningtheymusthavestartedalsoinunison-thechurch
musicand all that. Gradually, after years of experimenting, they added more and more
instruments.
Manypeople ask Why do we need orchestras in India when wehavegotourclassical
music which islike anocean.Solo singing orinstrumentalmusic inourtraditiontakes
yearsofstudy to reach certain standards, and one life isnotquitesufficient. So,what the
soloistOrtheclassical peoplesayisnotunreasonable.Butwhenthefutureisbringingin
Westernmusicatfull blast,is itnot necessary forustoprepare ourselves? Youngpeople
ofthe modem generation want Western music, They ask why not community singing,
whynotcommunity instruments?
Deva: Yes,thatisafashionnow.Ofcourse,wecansay."Idon'tbelongtothis."
Shirali:Butwe have tolivein this world and the future iscomingtous,whetherwe like
itornot.We have to solve theirproblemasourproblem.
Inn:Right.
Shlrali:Ithereforethought,likesomeotherswhofeellikeme,thatweshouldprepareour
OWnorchestration, nomaller how andwhat way,preservingour traditionand keepingthe
IndiancharacterofOUr music,The experiments, good or bad, will bedone by many dif
ferentpeople.Oncethegroundworkisprepared,wecan buildonthat,infuture,anorches
trathatwillsatisfythegenerationstocome andprovideguidelinesforthem.Thathasbeen
myapproach.It will notbeidenticalwith Western orchestration.
18 B.C.DEVA
Deva:You see, Panditji,theproblemisthis.You will surelyagreethattheragaisnotjust
12tones.Even 22Srutis,eventhere itisnot tempered to 22 intervals.
Shirali:Iagree.
Deva: The fundamental question is of different Srutis being employed. After all, the
komal dhaivat of Asavari is not the dhaivatof Bhairavi orBhairavorDarbari. So, how
everweltyoutuneaharmoniumoranytemperedinstrument,youcanneverproducethis.
Thesecondpointis: what aboutGamakas?TakeDarbari.
Shirall: Yes.Gamakaisveryimportant.
Deva:Withoutandolit gandharDarbari is no Darbari. Or you take Kamatak Todi. They
havetwokomalgandhars:oneistheusual sadharana ghandharam and theothertheToo
gandluJram. Ifwe omitthis, the raga doesn't remain Todi.Ifwe omit Gamaka it doesn't
remainDarbari. Howarewe going to getthis outofaninstrumentalcombination?Isit
possible atall?
Shirali:Thatisagood question.ButI thinkit will notbe verydifficult. Thedifficultyis
only because we havestillgOIthe Western orchestra in ourmind.
Deva:Isee.
Shirali: Suppose we want to orchestratein Rag Tool. What will I do?I will have many
instruments: say, fourorfive Sitars, four or five Sarods, andabouta dozen violins.
Sarangis can't cope witlr-eechestration because of their system of playing with syrnpa
theticstrings.
Deva:Yes,Iwas going10 askyou whether all this tarab will not be a bigdisturbance.
Shirali: That is why we have to have anew approach. I dealt with this question in my
paper atthe MadrasMusicAcademy.We must keepoutthe instruments withsympathet·
ic strings.Then weusecellos,flutesandsomanyotherinstruments whichare nottem
pered.
Deva:Ah,thatis the point.
Shirali:Temperedinstrumentscannot beused. You know the difference whenan Indian
trainedmusicianplaysthesameinstrument.
Deva;Oh,yes!
Shirali:Itisbecausethere isnodemand thatwefind noforeigncelloplayerwho will play
Indian music.
Deva:True,and ifhe hears the celloplayed by an Indianmusician,Ithinkhe will bevery
happy to hear it.
Shirali: Certainly.Thus,from suchinstruments we can make ourIndianorchestration. It
isnot necessary forustohavechords.
TOWARDSANINDIANORCHESTRA 19
Deva:That'safine point.
ShiraU:Wecan remove those things,andit isnot necessarytocrossallthe melodies.
Deva: Which means we need not completely take over harmonisation and the idea of
counterpoint.
Shirali:No,notnecessary at all. When we work inthis field andwegoonsolvingeach
problematevery stage,we maydevelop an Indian polyphony.
Deva:Yes.
ShiraU:AnIndianpolyphonynot necessarily-I would saydefinitelynot-taki~guptem
perament. And wecan developourowntransposition, whichwillbeofadifferentkind.
Deva:Whetheritcanbedoneisaveryinterestingquestion.
Shirali:It can be done in India. Only, unfortunately, withnut a laboratory, you can't do
anyexperiment. I have beenthinking of this question afterretiringfrom FilmsDivision.
IthoughtIwould create a smallunit inBombay. Every Sundaywewouldgathertogeth
er.Butinourgreat countrythat isnotpossible,becauseour egosclash.
Deva:OhGod!Eachone wants to become a hit.
Shlrali: Including Shirali!
Deva:Oh,yes.Everyoneofus.So how can webreak itup?And then,toexperimenton
orcbestration,youneed a lab.You need atleast 10to20musiciansall thetime.But, you
know,therearesomeestablished groups. Whyshouldtheynottakeitup?Therearepeo
plewhoarealreadywellpaidandtheyaresupposedtoproduceorchestrasandtheyshould
produceone.Theyget theirsalaries forthat.Theyshoulddoit.OtherwiseIdon'tseeany
wayout. YouCanhave aSitar alone in a room and go ondoing riyaz:Nobodycanstop
you.Butorchestra is agroup activity.
Shirali: Yes,the momentyoustartthinking oforchestras, therearetwentyto 100people.
Theymustbefed.You may bewilling tostarve,butthey maynotbe.
Deva:Thatisright. And now Iwill come totheother majorquestion,andthatisthehar
moniumanditsusein'Indianmusic.
Shirali:Theharmoniumisoneofthe thingsthathascometoIndianmusicfromtheWest.
!
haveattended somediscussionsonthequestion whetheritisasuitableaccomp~mcnt
in aclassical vocal concert.Theopinionswere, asusual,some for and ~ome against. ]
myselffeelthatonemayusetheharmonium asasoloinstrument;someofourwellknown
musicianshaveacquired mastery overthis instrumentand havegivensoJoprogrammes.
ButIdofeel uncomfortable when theharmonium isplayed as anaccompanyinginstru
mentforclassicalvocal music.Ourears, accustomed tohearingthenuancesoftheragas.
willsurelyfeelthedifference.Therecan beacompromiseonlyatthecostofreducingthe
values,andthecharacterofthedelicate Srutis ofourraga system.
20 B.C.DEVA
Wehavebeentoldthatsomeofthegreatmusiciansofthepastusedtheharmoniumas
accompanimentintheirvocalconcerts.butthatshouldnotbeacriterion. Gettingusedto
thetemperednotes of ahannonium---even a22-Sruti scale harmonium-will make our
earlesssensitivetotheuniqueSrutis ofourragas.
Deva:Thatisanexcellentstatement.
Shirali:IfwehearDarbari Kanadaontheharmoniumwhileaccompanyingavocalist,and
do notfeel the difference,then wehave had it.
Deva: We havebeen havingitanyway. Wehave reallymadeacompromise. Theques
tioniswhetherwecanafford suchacompromise.
Shirali: Wecannot.Infact,Idonotapprove oftheuseoftheharmonium evenasanaid
forteaching classicalmusictochildren.
Deva: I am so glad you have said that. It iskilling the soul of the childrenat the source,
before they grow up. But do you really think the harmonium has any use even as a solo
instrument? Itcannotproduce Gamakas, andwhatisthepointofhavingsuchaninstru
mentforIndianmusic?
Shirali:Whatyousayistrue.Irecall that,inoneofthe discussions on the useofthehar
monium, somebody said; 'You see, Fayyaz Khan Sahib used to have a harmonium, and
so did Abdul Karim Khan.' The only remark I could make was: 'Just because Swami
Vivekananda smoked, does it make smoking ahealthyhabit?'
Let me refer to an incident withinmy personal experience.I once askedVilayat
Hussain Sahib: 'Khan Sahib, why do you use a harmonium?' He replied: 'Beta, kaun
suntahai?' ('My dear boy, who hears it?') Now, if you don'thear the harmonium, why
haveit?
Deva: Finally Panditji, Iwouldlike you tospeak about yourown guru, VishnuDigambar
Paluskar. What have you gathered from him, and what do you think is his majorcontri
bution?
Shirali: PanditVishnu DigarnbarPaluskarwasmy favourite guru. Forme, he wasmusic
personified. Music isnotalltechnique, itlies beyondand penetratesyourheartandhead.
Itinspires. That is the impression ofVishnu Digarnbar which I carry with me. I had the
opportunityofbeing constantlynearhimforsevenyears.hearinghimteachingseniorstu
dents, performing inthe music conferences andpuhlic concerts, and doing his daily rou
tineofswara sadhana andpractice. Hewasagreat vocalistwithavoice of exceptional
quality; astrictdisciplinarian;andamanoftremendouspersonalityanddignity,ofunder
standing andvision.Heopened myearstotheapproachtoclassicalHindustanimusic, and
gave me the vision to experiment with appliedmusic with a classical background. This
gave me the guidelines for my entire life and careerin the field ofcomposing music for
dances, dance-dramas, filmsandorchestrationinourmusic. .
Vishnu Digambarcreated an awakening which promotedrespectfor and appreciation
ofclassicalmusic;hewasthepioneerinintroducingmusicineducationalinstitutionsand
TOWARDSANINDIANORCHESTRA 21
amongeducatedfamiliesatatimewhenmusicandmusicianswerelookeddownuponand
werekeptaway from cultured circles.Hemaynothavecreated vocalistswhocould sing
exactly like himself but taught and inspired a few students of his with the essence of
classicalmusic. Hecreated acadreofmusicians topropagatehisprinciples andtoprepare
a field for 'Kansens' (discriminating listeners) if not Tansens (after the name of the
legendary musician). Vishnu Digambarmade a greatcontributionto thecauseof Indian
music, and Hindustaniclassicalmusicinparticular.
Deva: Yes,his vision was truly great, as a teacher. Ifyou don'ttrain students properly,
cantheyidentifyagoodconcert?Imean.ifthey don'tknowwhatisTOOi Gandhar,what
is Kafi Gandhar, can they identify a good concert? That leads me to ask you: what do
you think ofour system of music education? Itcreates teachingjobs,awards diplomas.
Butisitadequa.te?
Shirali:Thewhole systemis,Ifeel,influencedby the fact that ourcountry isyoung asa
freenation,We feel wehavetobedemocratic. soeveryonemusthavehisfreedom. We
don'tliketheoldtraditionalway ofteachingor rigorousteaching: 'You can'tdothis,you
can'tdothat,youcan'tgoout,you rehearseand you practise.' Afterfreedomwethought:
'Letusbreak away from this.Iwant todo as Iwant.' That ishoweverybodyistryingto
.become a teacher. Day before yesterday, I met somebody who has learnt something-
dance ormusic-for two years. and thatperson would like to startaschool. Eventwo
yearsistoomuchforhim.Thisisthe approachin the wholeeducational system,notonly
music.
Deva:Yes,everywhere.Thingsareinaturmoil,
Shirali:Hence thequestionofTansenand Kansen.Vishnu Digambartriedtocreategood,
discriminatinglisteners.hewantedtomakearevolutionoftheYuga,orCentury.
Deva:Iquiteunderstand.
Shirali:It wasunfortunatethat hedid not haveperhapstherightsortofmaterial.Butwe
arethinkingnot so much about that asofthe radiation that thegreatmangenerated.Iam
notaparty man.I don'tbelong to one party.I belong to a party which creates, which is
intune.
Deva:Ithink that isan excellentthing.Thesocialenvironmentisunfortunatelysuchthat
WeeveninOUfscience;inourmusic,wewanttogetadegreeeasily.Andforthatweare
payingthepenally.Iam SOvery glad. Panditji,thatyoucameandthat wehavehadafine,
Open-mindeddiscussion.Thankyou very much. 0
