Table Of ContentHOW TO CUT THE FEDERAL BUDGET
Y 4. B 85/3: 104-2
Hou to Cut the Federal Budget; Seri...
n£.ARING
-7
.,
BEFORE THE
COMMITTEE ON THE BUDGET
HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
ONE HUNDRED FOURTH CONGRESS
FIRST SESSION
HEARING HELD IN COLUMBUS, OH, JANUARY 21, 1995
HEARING HELD IN PRESCOTT, AZ, JANUARY 28, 1995
HEARING HELD IN WEST COLUMBIA, SC, FEBRUARY 4, 1995
HEARING HELD IN MANVILLE, NJ, FEBRUARY 11, 1995
HEARING HELD IN BILLINGS, MT, FEBRUARY 18, 1995
Serial No. 104-2
""''^^fss,
Printed for the use of the Committee on the Budget
U.S. GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE
87-931 WASHINGTON : 1995
ForsalebytheU.S.GovernmentPrintingOffice
SuperintendentofDocuments,CongressionalSalesOffice,Washington,DC 20402
ISBN 0-16-046967-8
r\ r\c: ^
HOW
TO CUT THE FEDERAL BUDGET
Y 4. B 85/3: 104-2
Hou to Cut the Federal Budgeti Seri...
njiARING
-7
.,
BEFORE THE
COMMITTEE ON THE BUDGET
HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
ONE HUNDRED FOURTH CONGRESS
FIRST SESSION
HEARING HELD IN COLUMBUS, OH, JANUARY 21, 1995
HEARING HELD IN PRESCOTT, AZ, JANUARY 28, 1995
HEARING HELD IN WEST COLUMBIA, SC, FEBRUARY 4, 1995
HEARING HELD IN MANVILLE, NJ, FEBRUARY 11, 1995
HEARING HELD IN BILLINGS, MT, FEBRUARY 18, 1995
Serial No. 104-2
May
^0 %i,
Printed for the use of the Committee on the Budget
U.S. GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE
87-931 WASHINGTON : 1995
ForsalebytheU.S.GovernmentPrintingOffice
SuperintendentofDocuments,CongressionalSalesOffice,Washington,DC 20402
ISBN 0-16-046967-8
COMMITTEE ON THE BUDGET
JOHN R. KASICH, Ohio, Chairman
DAVID L. HOBSON, Ohio MARTIN OLAV SABO, Minnesota,
ROBERT S. WALKER, Pennsylvania, Ranking Minority Member
Vice Chairman CHARLES W. STENHOLM, Texas
JIM KOLBE, Arizona LOUISE MCINTOSH SLAUGHTER,
CHRISTOPHER SHAYS, Connecticut New York
WALLY HERGER, CaUfornia MIKE PARKER, Mississippi
JIM BUNNING, Kentucky WILLIAM J. COYNE, Pennsylvania
LAMAR S. SMITH, Texas ALAN B. MOLLOPL\N, West Virginia
WAYNE ALLARD, Colorado JERRY F. COSTELLO, Illinois
DAN MILLER, Florida HARRY JOHNSTON, Florida
RICK LAZIO, New York PATSY T. MINK, Hawaii
BOB FRANKS, New Jersey BILL ORTON, Utah
NICK SMITH, Michigan EARL POMEROY, North Dakota
BOB INGLIS, South Carolina GLEN BROWDER, Alabama
MARTIN R. HOKE, Ohio LYNN C. WOOLSEY, California
SUSAN MOLINARI, New York JOHN W. OLVER, Massachusetts
JIM NUSSLE, Iowa LUCILLE ROYBAL-ALLARD, California
PETER HOEKSTRA, Michigan CARRIE P. MEEK, Florida
STEVE LARGENT, Oklahoma LYNN N. RIVERS, Michigan
SUE MYRICK, North CaroUna LLOYD DOGGETT, Texas
SAM BROWNBACK, Kansas
JOHN SHADEGG, Arizona
GEORGE P. RADANOVICH, CaUfornia
CHARLES F. BASS, New Hampshire
Professional Staff
Richard E. May, StaffDirector
Eileen M. Baumgartner, Minority StaffDirector
(II)
CONTENTS
Page
Hearingheld in Columbus, OH, January 21, 1995 1
Hearingheld in Prescott, AZ, January 28, 1995 61
Hearingheld in West Columbia, SC, February 4, 1995 Ill
Hearingheld in Manville, NJ, February 11, 1995 157
Hearingheld in Billings, MT, February 18, 1995 203
StatementofHon. GeorgeV. Voinovich, Governor, State ofOhio 3
Statement ofHon. Greg Lashutka, Mayor, CitvofColumbus, OH 16
StatementofHon. David Beasley, Governor, State ofSouth Carolina 113
Statement ofHon. Robert Coble, Mayor, CityofColumbia, SC 114
StatementofHon. Christine ToddWhitman, Governor, State ofNewJersey ... 160
Statement ofHon. Angelo Corradino, Mayor, CityofManville, NJ 162
Statement ofHon. Conrad R. Bums, Senatorfromthe State ofMontana 206
Statement ofHon. Richard Larsen, Mayor, City ofBillings, MT 207
Prepared statementofHon. George V. Voinovich, Governor, StateofOhio 9
Prepared statementofMr. Roger Wood 30
Prepared statementofMr. Joseph Lolli 137
(III)
HOW TO CUT THE FEDERAL BUDGET
SATURDAY, JANUARY 21, 1995
House of Representatives,
Committee on the Budget,
Columbus, OH.
The committee met, pursuant to call, at 3 p.m., in Ohio Domini-
can Little Theater, Ohio Dominican College, Columbus, OH, Hon.
John R. Kasich (chairman ofthe committee) presiding.
Representatives Present: Kasich, Hobson, Kolbe, Herger, Miller
ofFlorida, Radanovich, Sabo, Parker, and Browder.
Chairman Kasich. The House Budget Committee will come to
order.
I want to first of all thank the members of the committee for
coming to Columbus today, and several of them from California
and Arizona wanted to thank us for the great weather that we gave
them.
Let me introduce the members, ifI could.
To my left, the senior Democrat, the minority leader of this side
of the House Budget Co—mmittee, Martin Sabo, who is from Min-
nesota, and Martin was he is from Minneapolis, but he was born
and raised in a little town in North Dakota, so he feels like we
gave him a warm welcome here today.
To my right is Congressman David Hobson. Many of you would
recognize Congressman Hobson because he is from Springfield, OH.
Next to Congressman Hobson is Congressman Jim Kolbe from
Sonoita, AZ, just outside of Tucson; and then next to Jim Kolbe is
Congressman Wally Herger from Yuba City, CA; and then next to
Wally Herger is Congressman Dan Miller from Bradenton, FL.
And our newest member of the committee, a first-freshman from
Mariposa, CA, Congressman George Radanovich; and then to the
left of Mr. Sabo from Brookhaven, MS, this is the first time he has
ever seen snow. Congressman Mike Parker; and to Mike's left from
Jacksonville, AL, Congressman Glenn Browder.
Now, ladies and gentlemen, I first of all, want to thank obviously
the committee for taking the time to come to Columbus today. This
will be the first ofwhat will be a series ofhearings across the coun-
try. We will be in Prescott, AZ, we will be in Manville, NJ, in Co-
lumbia, SC, and then we will is also be in Billings, MT.
I want to first ofall thank the Ohio Dominican College staff, and
particularly Sister Mary Matesich. Where is Sister Matesich?
We don't applaud in congressional hearings for witnesses or for
members or anything like that, it is orderly, but we are going to
make an exception here and give her a round of applause, along
with her stafffor the great work they have done.
(1)
This hearing really is unprecedented from the standpoint that we
only have two witnesses that will appear today who have been
prescheduled, Gov. George Voinovich and Mayor Greg Lashutka.
The rest of the time we will hear from the panel. We will hear a
number of panels, each of the members of the panel selected at
random who will be permitted to address the committee for 3 min-
utes.
Members then will have an opportunity, ifthey feel moved, to be
able to question the panel. For the last 30 minutes of the program
today, we will actually use an open-style mike format and people
for 1 minute will be able to address the committee.
The only rules are simply this, we are interested in having you
tell us what ideas you have for being able to balance the budget,
to be able to shrink the size of government, and to be able to help
this committee in theirjob to try to save the next generation.
We are not inviting the special interest groups to testify, the lob-
byists. They are good at getting to Washington, we are not inter-
ested in them, we are interested in you.
I will tell everybody here, that this committee is very excited
about the attendance we have here today, and it demonstrates,
clearly demonstrates that the American people want to be part of
what their government does. The reason why we wanted to come
and hear from you is because, frankly, most people have felt left
out. We are no longer going to debate in the House about whether
we should have a Balanced Budget Amendment.
We will have a debate, but the results are pretty well known.
Over 60 Democrats have now signed a letter saying that they were
going to support the amendment. We are going to have a Balanced
Budget Amendment pass the House of Representatives, and I an-
ticipate pass the Senate and, ultimately, be ratified by the States.
The issue then becomes
We are going to have order today, folks. This is an official hear-
ing, just like we do in Washington, except we are out here, and we
don't want to have a situation where people are going to say some-
thing and you are going to start cheering, we are not going to put
up with that here today. We are going to have an orderly hearing,
and we are going to be respectful to one another, that is the way
we conduct our business.
What we want is we want you to be part of this. That is what
it is all about, and that is why we are going to go across the coun-
try, and you know what we want to do? We want to listen, we want
to learn, and then we want to lead. And i think it is exciting that
so many folks took the time on a Saturday to come here. And we
are going to listen to you, and we may have questions for you.
And one more time, I want to thank Sister Mary Matesich, the
staff of the college, and the members of the committee for coming
here.
And I would now like to recognize my distinguished colleague
from Minnesota, Congressman Sabo.
Mr. Sabo. Well, thank you, Mr. Chairman.
It is a pleasure to be here with John in Columbus, OH. We look
forward to the opportunity to hear from all of you. In front of you,
you have a breakdown of where the Federal dollars go. We wait in
anticipation to hear your suggestions on how we can deal with
some real fiscal problems we have at the Federal level, and in par-
ticular, we are anxious to hear how you might suggest we deal with
some ofthe very large and very expensive programs.
They are always worthwhile suggestions. We may hear on pro-
grams that they have a relatively small cost impact. The reality is
that as we look at the discretionary spending that the Federal Gov-
ernment does, that which we appropriate every year, about half is
to defense, half is for the balance of other things the Federal Gov-
ernment does. Then we have a large amount of expenditures that
are entitlements, programs that go on year after year, unless we
change the law. The overwhelming portion of that money is Social
Security, Medicare, Medicaid, and a couple of other retirement pro-
grams. That is where the bulk of that money is expended. So we
wait with interest to hear the particulars of your suggestions on
how we could reform those programs to make them work better in
our society and how we can save money.
But, John, we appreciate the opportunity to be here with you,
and hear the suggestions ofyour constituents in Ohio.
Chairman Kasich. I want to thank Mr. Sabo.
I want everybody here to know that I think there is a sense that
Republicans and Democrats have a hard time getting along. And
let me be the first to tell you that Congressman Sabo has been an
outstanding leader on the Democrat side, and we have had a won-
derful working relationship during his chairmanship. And we an-
ticipate that good, personal and professional relationship continu-
ing now because, frankly, we don't believe we can get this job done
ofsaving the next generation unless we can pitch in together.
And so I want to salute Marty here as we get started. And we
are privileged and excited to have with us today Governor
Voinovich, the do more with less, work harder and smarter.
And, Governor Voinovich, ifyou would like to take your seat and
begin your testimony, we appreciate you taking the time to be with
us today.
Governor George Voinovich.
STATEMENT OF HON. GEORGE V. VOINOVICH, GOVERNOR,
STATE OF OHIO
Governor VoiNOVlCH. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Chairman and members of the committee, it is great having
you are here in Ohio, a State that I believe is a true microcosm of
the United States ofAmerica. I appreciate the opportunity to share
some thoughts about a subject that impacts upon each of us every
day, the proper role ofthe Fedei*al Government, State government,
and local government.
Our Forefathers referred to this as federalism and outlined our
relationship in the 10th amendment. It is real short: The power not
delegated to the United States by the Constitution nor prohibited
to the States, are reserved to the States respectively or to the peo-
ple.
Representing the National League of Cities in a speech before
the Volunteers of the National Archives back in 1986 on the 200th
birthday ofthe Constitution, I said:
We have seen the expansion ofthe national government's role into nontraditional
domestic policy areas. We have experienced a tremendous increase in the proclivity
ofthe central government, both to preempt State and local authority, and to man-
date actions on State or local governments. The cumulative effect ofa series ofac-
tions by the Congress, the Executive Branch, and the U.S. Supreme Court have
caused some legal scholars to observe that while constitutional federalism is alive
in scholarly treatises, ithas expired as a practical political reality.
I am pleased that we are having a national discussion about the
way our government works. That is what this is about, because
what we conclude will have an enormous impact on whether we
can make any real progress toward reducing the Federal deficit.
In order to proceed with the discussion, we must respond to two
basic yet powerful questions. They are real simple: First, we must
define which government services are truly vital to society and
which are not. As Abraham Lincoln once said: The legitimate object
of government is to do for a community of people whatever they
need to have done but cannot do it all or cannot do for themselves
in their separate and individual capacities. I have always added, in
all things the people can do for themselves, government ought not
to interfere.
Second, once we have decided what government should do, we
must then determine what level of government. Federal, State,
local, or some combination thereof, should provide and pay for
those services.
I commend the chairman and every member of this committee.
I really appreciate your coming to Ohio today, appreciate your
being here to hear from people here in Ohio and your commitment
to hear from people across America. Involving State and local offi-
cials, as well as the average American citizen, will do more to re-
store federalism than an5^hing else we have attempted to do in re-
cent past.
Frankly, one of the reasons why our customers, and these are
our customers, the people, are so fed up is that Washington does
not listen to them. And, Mr. Chairman, I was heartened by your
comment this week that we should listen carefully to the "America
that pays the bills."
It is ironic that nearly a decade ago Congress was going through
a similar exercise to reduce the Federal budget deficit. I was the
mayor of Cleveland and was experiencing the loss of $79 million in
Federal funds, such as revenue-sharing, CETA, over half of our
community development block grants. We reduced the city's work
force by 10 percent, in 10 years our budget increased only 45 per-
cent while the State budget went up 130 percent.
Mayors and citizens throughout the country were feeling the pain
of these Federal cuts. In Cleveland, to make up the difference, the
voters approved a one-third increase in the city's income tax.
We honestly believed that we had to do our part to get America
back on track and on the road to fiscal responsibility. Imagine our
disillusionment when the Federal deficit continued to spiral out of
control. Congress continued to spend nearly a dollar and a half for
every dollar in revenues, and today we are worse off than ever be-
fore.
Washington cannot be proud of the fact that it balanced its last
budget in 1969, more than a quarter century ago. I support the
Balanced Budget Amendment. It is needed to give Congress the
backbone to deal with the deficit and guarantee that the sacrifice
