Consolidating federal programs and organizations : hearings before the Subcommittee on Government Management, Information, and Technology of the Committee on Government Reform and Oversight, House of Representatives, One Hundred Fourth Congress, first ses

210 Pages·1996·8.9 MB·English

by  United States. Congress. House. Committee on Government Reform and Oversight. Subcommittee on Government Management, Information, and Technology

CONSOUDATING FEDERAL PROGRAMS AND
ORGANIZATIONS
Y 4, G 74/7: P 94/27
Consolidating Federil Prograns and...
HEARINGS
BEFORE THE
SUBCOMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENT MANAGEMENT,
INFORMATION, AND TECHNOLOGY
OF THE
COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENT
REFORM AND OVERSIGHT
HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
ONE HUNDRED FOURTH CONGRESS
FIRST SESSION
MAY 16 AND MAY 23, 1995
Printed for the use of the Committee on Government Reform and Oversight
U.S. GOVERNME>rr PRINTING OFFICE
26-805CC WASHINGTON : 1996
ForsalebytheU.S.GovernmentPrintingOffice
SuperintendentofDocuments,CongressionalSalesOffice,Washington,DC 20402
ISBN 0-16-053570-0

CONSOUDATING FEDERAL PROGRAMS AND
ORGANIZATIONS
Y 4. G 74/7: P 94/27
Consolidatlog Federal Prograns and...
HEARINGS
BEFORE THE
SUBCOMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENT MANAGEMENT,
INFORMATION, AND TECHNOLOGY
OF THE
COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENT
REFORM AND OVERSIGHT
HOUSE OP REPRESENTATIVES
ONE HUNDRED FOURTH CONGRESS
FIRST SESSION
MAY 16 AND MAY 23, 1995
Printed for the use of the Committee on Government Reform and Oversight
o^po^ifimm.
%
HOl/
^7
U.S. GOVERNfMENfT PRINTING OFFICE ' '^
26-805CC WASHINGTON : 1996 . ^ '-\yy
ForsalebytheU.S.GovernmentPrintingOffice
SuperintendentofDocuments,CongressionalSalesOffice,Washington,DC 20402
ISBN 0-16-053570-0
COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENT REFORM AND OVERSIGHT
WILLIAM F. CLINGER, JR., Pennsylvania, Chairman
BDEANNJBAUMRITNOAN.,OIInLdMiaAnNa, New York CHAERNDRIYSSA.COWLALXIMNAS,N,IlChanloiifsornia
CONSTANCE A. MORELLA, Maryland TOM LANTOS, California
CHRISTOPHER SHAYS, Connecticut ROBERT E. WISE, JR., West Virginia
STEVEN SCHIFF, New Mexico MAJOR R. OWENS, New York
ILEANA ROS-LEHTINEN, Florida EDOLPHUS TOWNS, New York
JWIOLHLNIAM.MMH.CHZUELGIHF,F,NJeRw.,YNoerwk Hampshire JLOOUHINSEM.MScPiRnAtToTs,hJRs.,laSouugthhtCearr.oliNneaw
STEPHEN HORN, California York
JOHN L. MICA, Florida PAUL E. KANJORSKI, Pennsylvania
PETER BLUTE, Massachusetts GARY A. CONDIT, California
THOMAS M. DAVIS, Virginia COLLIN C. PETERSON, Minnesota
DAVID M. MctNTOSH, Indiana KAREN L. THURMAN, Florida
JON D. FOX, Pennsylvania CAROLYN B. MALONEY, New York
RANDYTATE, Washington THOMAS M. BARRETT, Wisconsin
DICK CHRYSLER, Michigan GENE TAYLOR, Mississippi
GIL GUTKNECHT, Minnesota BARBARA-ROSE COLLINS, Michigan
MARK E. SOUDER, Indiana ELEANOR HOLMES NORTON, District of
WJOIELLSICAAMRJB.OMRAORUTGIHNI,,FNloerwidaJersey JACMolEuSmbPi.aMORAN, Virginia
JMOICHHNABE.LSPHAATDREIGCGK,FALriAzNoAnaGAN, Illinois GCAERNREIEGRPE.EMNE,EKTe,xaFslorida
CSHTAERVLEENSC.F.LaBATSOSU,RENTeTwE,HaOmhpisohire FCRHAANKKAMFAASTCTAAHR,A,PePnennsnyslyvlavnainaia
MARSHALL "MARK" SANFORD, South
BERNARD SANDERS, Vermont
Carolina
ROBERT L. EHRLICH, JR., Maryland (Independent)
James L. Clarke, StaffDirector
Kevin Sabo, General Counsel
Judith McCoy, ChiefClerk
Bud Myers, Minority StaffDirector
Subcommittee on Government Management, Information, and Technology
STEPHEN HORN, California, Chairman
MICHAEL PATRICK FLANAGAN, Illinois CAROLYN B. MALONEY, New York
PETER BLUTE, Massachusetts MAJOR R. OWENS, New York
THOMAS M. DAVIS, Viiiginia FRANK MASCARA, Pennsylvania
JON D. FOX, Pennsylvania ROBERT E. WISE, JR., West Virginia
RANDY TATE, Washington JOHN M. SPRATT, JR., South Carolina
JOE SCARBOROUGH, Florida PAUL E. KANJORSKI, Pennsylvania
CHARLES F. BASS, New Hampshire
Ex Officio
WILLIAM F. CLINGER, JR.. Pennsylvania CARDISS COLLINS. Illinois
J. Russell George, StaffDirector
Mark UNCAPHER, Professional StaffMember
ANDREW G. Richardson, Clerk
Dave McMillEN, Minority Professional Staff
Matt PINKUS, Minority Professional Staff
(II)
CONTENTS
Page
Hearingheldon:
May 16, 1995 1
May 23, 1995 41
Statement of:
Brewer, Shelby T., former Under Secretary of Energy (1981-1984); and
DonnaR. Fitzpatrick, formerUnderSecretaryofEnergy(1989-1990) ... 78
Finn, Chester E., Jr., John M. Olin fellow, the Hudson Institute; and
William D. Hansen, executive director ofthe Education Finance Coun-
cil 146
Hodel, Donald P., former Secretary of Energy (1982-1985); Admiral
James D. Watkins, former Secretary ofEnergy (1989-1993); and John
S. Herrington, formerSecretaryofEnergy (1985-1989) 45
Munoz, George, Assistant Secretary for Management, Chief Financial
Officer, Department ofthe Treasury; Paul L. Posner, DirectorofBudget
Issues, Accounting and Information Management Division, (Jeneral Ac-
countingOffice 173
O'Leary, Hazel, SecretaryofEnergy 8
Smith, Marshall S., UnderSecretary forEducation 103
Letters, statements, etc., submitted forthe recordby:
Brewer, Shelby T., former Under Secretary oi Energy (1981-1984), pre-
paredstatementof 80
Dunn, Michael J., president, Selective Environmental Technologies, Inc.,
preparedstatementof 99
Finn, ChesterE., Jr., John M. Olin fellow, the Hudson Institute, prepared
statementof 147
Fitzpatrick, Donna R., former UnderSecretary ofEnergy, prepared state-
mentof 88
Flanagan, Hon. Michael, a Representative in Congress from the State
ofIllinois, prepared statement of 43
Fox, Hon.Jon, a Representative in Congress from the State ofPennsylva-
nia, prepared statementof 44
Hansen, William D., executive directorofthe Education Finance Counsel,
prepared statementof 156
Herrington, John S., former Secretary of Energy (1985-1989), prepared
statementof 62
Hodel, Donald P., former Secretary of Energy (1982-1985), prepared
statementof 46
Maloney, Hon. Carolyn B., a Representative in Congress from the State
ofNewYork:
Informationconcerninga Washington Post article 129
Preparedstatementof 42
Munoz, George, Assistant Secretar>' for Management, Chief Financial
Officer, Department ofthe Treasury, prepared statement of 176
National Education Association, prepared statementof 200
O'Leary, Hazel, SecretaryofEnergy, preparedstatement of 13
Posner, Paul L., Director of Budget Issues, Accounting and Information
Management Division, General Accounting Office, prepared statement
of 181
Smith, MarshallS., UnderSecretary forEducation:
Informationconcerning a May 24, 1995 letter 135
Information concerning aJune 5, 1995 letter 127
Prepared statementof 105
Spratt, Hon. John M., Jr., a Representative in Congress from the State
ofSouth Carolina, prepared statementof 199
Watkins, Admiral James D., former Secretary of Energy (1989-1993),
prepared statementof 51
(III)
IV
Page
LetteWrusrtszt;atDemeepnatrst,meetnc.t, soufbmEidtutceadtifoonr,thienfroercomradtibony—cCoonntcienmumegd delinquency ^^^
loans
CONSOLIDATING FEDERAL PROGRAMS AND
ORGANIZATIONS
TUESDAY, MAY 16, 1995
House of Representatives,
Subcommittee on Government Management,
Information, and Technology,
Committee on Government Reform and Oversight,
Washington, DC.
The subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, at 10 a.m., in room
2154, Rayburn House Office Building, Hon. Stephen Horn (chair-
man ofthe subcommittee) presiding.
Present: Representatives Horn, Flanagan, Davis, Fox, Tate,
Scarborough, Bass, dinger, Maloney, Mascara and Spratt.
Staff present: J. Russell George, staff director; Mike Stoker,
counsel; Mark Uncapher, professional staff member and counsel;
Andrew G. Richardson, clerk; and Wallace Hsueh, staff assistant.
Mr. Horn. A quorum being present, the Subcommittee on Gov-
ernment Management, Information, and Technology will come to
order.
We are delighted to have with us the Secretary of Energy, Dr.
Hazel O'Leary, and we intend to explore the likely effects of several
different Federal Government restructuring programs and propos-
als on the Department ofEnergy.
As we see and hear every day through the news media, the
American people overwhelmingly support balancing the Federal
budget. On the question of just how best to balance the budget,
there are a variety of opinions and proposals. Despite differences
among them, the most widely publicized—recommendations focus
consistently on three cabinet departments Commerce, Education,
and Energy. This morning's meeting is part one of a three part
hearing we are holding on consolidating Federal programs and or-
ganizations. This morning and next Tuesday we will hear from cur-
rent and former Education and Energy officials, as well as private
sector experts with views on how to restructure the two agencies.
We will also examine case studies of National Performance Re-
view initiatives, try to assess whether they went far enough or are
working as intended.
Finally, we will explore what actions or initiatives agency heads
such as Secretary O'Leary might consider to go beyond any short-
falls in the NPR recommendations.
Secretary O'Leary is with us today. We will hear and discuss her
ideas, the administration's proposal for changing the Department's
structure and organization. The Secretary's recommendations will
serve as a point of reference for next Tuesday's meeting, at which
(1)
we will hear from two former Under Secretaries, three former Sec-
retaries ofEnergy.
Madam Secretary, we thank you and your staffforjoining us. We
look forward to your testimony. Let me ask my colleagues and the
ranking member in particular, Mrs. Maloney of New York, if they
wish to make an opening statement before we swear in the witness.
Mrs. Maloney. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman, and wel-
come Secretary O'Leary. I am pleased you could join us today to
explain the National Performance Review initiatives at the Depart-
ment ofEnergy.
As you know, I am a big supporter of the National Performance
Review. It is a serious attempt to look at what the Government
does and ask how it can be done better and more cost-effectively.
We have seen great strides and improvements in Government pro-
curement, which have saved millions of dollars, and we look for-
ward to hearing your statement today.
Later today we will hear testimony from a number of witnesses
who want to abolish one or another department. As you know, the
Department of Energy is on many of those lists. I am concerned
that many of these proposals are more the subject of fashion than
investigation.
It is relatively easy to call for abolishing a cabinet level depart-
ment, but between that call and reality lies a great deal of work.
The Department of Energy was created as a result of the energy
crisis of the late 1970's. The American public, forced to line up lor
gasoline, demanded Grovernment action.
The Government action to that crisis made it clear that the Na-
tion's Energy policy lacked the cohesion of unified leadership. The
Department of Energy was not created at a bureaucratic whim. It
was created because the American public demanded Government
leadership in the field ofEnergy.
But there is much more to our Nation's Energy policy than as-
suring the flow of gasoline to the punips. Part of the contract with
the public that was written with the creation of the Department of
Energy was to clean up a number ofplaces where hazardous waste
was dumped.
What are the plans on how this will be handled if DOE is abol-
ished?
DOE also runs the system of national labs which trace their his-
tory to the Manhattan Project and the first atomic bomb. Much of
the country's weapons research has been done there. What are the
proposals for handling energy research if the Department is abol-
ished?
I could go on listing the many functions within the Department
of Energy which are important to the country, but the point is
whether or not there is a Department of Energy, there is energy
policy that must be made and carried out. Deciding where and
what happens is not a trivial exercise. We have very little experi-
ence witn abolishing cabinet-level departments, and for that reason
we should move cautiously. That is one of the reasons it is so im-
portant that Chairman Horn has called these hearings.
There are a number of questions to be answered: What functions
should be abolished? What should be done with those that remain?
How do we make sure a unified policy remains in place? How do
we monitor service to the public? But perhaps the first, should this
action originate in Congress?
I hope these hearings will begin to address many ofthe questions
that need to be raised, but I have no delusion that these 2 days
of hearings with only administration witnesses supporting the De-
partments will suffice. So far, the selection of outside witnesses
nas been very one-sided. If we are to carry out our responsibility
in this area, it is important that we do it carefully and with bal-
ance.
Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.
Mr, Horn. Thank you very much. I now yield to the chairman
ofthe full committee, Mr. dinger ofPennsylvania.
Mr. Clinger. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman, and Madam
Secretary. I want to just welcome you to the committee and com-
mend you on your stewardship ofthe Department ofEnergy.
I would also say that I think we here and you share an interest
and a desire to make Government work better, cost less, and be
more efficient, and I would commend you on the steps you have
taken to do that in the Department or Energy. We may disagree
on how far that ought to go, and that will be part ofthe discussion
I am sure this morning and in the coming days.
We are embarked on a very controversial, but I think an impor-
tant debate as to the size and scope and purpose of the Federal
Government, and I think there are going to be many areas where
we are going to be in agreement. I have had an opportunity to meet
with the Vice President, discuss his views, and he has met with our
committee, so we hope that we can do this in a cooperative basis,
and I am just delighted that you can come before us today and give
us your views.
Thank you very much.
Ms. O'Leary. Thank you, sir.
Mr. Horn. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Mascara from Pennsylvania.
Mr. Mascara. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I want to commend you at the beginning for holding these series
of hearings on making government work. I must say at the onset
that I am opposed to the meat axe approach my Republican col-
leagues have indicated they want to take to make changes in many
programs in the departments and eliminating some ofthem. Never-
theless, I am hopeful these hearings will at least provide some dis-
cussion of ways to turn this meat axe approach into a more clear-
headed path for reforming departments and agencies.
I concur with the assessment that the American people have sent
a clear message that they want their Grovernment at all levels to
modernize its functions. They want Government to be yanked into
the 21st century, and they want it to provide the essential services
the public requires, in the most efficient and sound method as pos-
sible.
But I do not think that means that they want us to leave them
with a shell ofa government. Nor do I think that means we should
be dismantling departments and shuffling vital functions to an-
other department or agency only to end up saving taxpayers pen-
nies rather than the promised millions and billions of dollars. Be-
cause I believe Grovernment needs to be reformed top to bottom, the
President and the Vice President should be commended for their
sincere and thoughtful efforts to reinvent Government.
I only wish that we would give departments and agencies time
to complete their own reviews rather than pushing them off the
plank without receiving a fair trial. I must also say I concur with
the comments made by my Democratic colleagues that it is unfortu-
nate that this hearing could not be held prior to the Budget Com-
mittee action on the fiscal 1996 budget resolution.
I fear the die has already been cast and any comments of support
for the Departments of Energy, Education, and Commerce will fall
on deaf ears. I am afraid this will turn out to be another situation
where even my Republican friends will pray the Senate once again
demonstrates some restraint.
I must also indicate I regret that the panel ofwitnesses that will
present testimony is not more balanced. Surely the committee staff
should have invited respected scholars from a more nonpartisan in-
stitute such as the Brookings Institute. They surely would present
a more unbiased and forthright assessment ofthe agencies in ques-
tion and the importance oftheir historic functions.
Finally, I must admit I have a parochial interest in today's ses-
sion. The reorganization plan recently announced by Secretary
O'Leary calls for consolidating the administration and management
of the Pittsburgh Energy Technology Center with a similar facility
located in Morgantown, WV. The Pittsburgh center, located in mv
district, employs some 300 people and performs premier research
into clean coal technology.
I must say. Madam Secretary, that in two of the five counties
that I represent, there are nearly 8 billion tons of coal reserves.
This certainly has to be a factor in determining whether this center
would stay open or not.
While I am obviouslv concerned about retaining jobs in my dis-
trict, above and beyond that I think we should not willy-nilly aban-
don such important research efforts. The American people would
certainly not be well served ifthis is the end result.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Horn. Thank you. I now yield to Mr. Fox from Pennsylvania
for an opening statement.
Mr. Fox. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Again, I would like to echo the comments of my colleagues re-
garmng your leadership on moving these issues forward, and I am
grateful for the efforts that you and your subcommittee have taken.
I know that Chairman dinger feels the same way. I realize that
today's hearing will be in three parts to consider proposals for re-
structuring the programs and functions of the Depaitments of En-
ergy and Education, this morning's hearing focusing strictly, of
course, on Department ofEnergy.
Mr. Chairman, there is widespread belief that the Department
should be reorganized and restructured. The Department of Energy
was originally created to deal with the Energy crisis the country
experienced in the 1970's when we had gasoline lines and natural
gas shortages, for example, and the prospect of inevitable energy
shortages and ever-increasing energy prices.
The crisis, however, is in large part the result ofprice and alloca-
tion controls imposed by the Federal Government. As President