Table Of ContentS. Hrg. 103-74
COMMITTEE STRUCTURE
\l
M.3'
C-MP.tr.
INGS
BEFORE THE
JOINT COMMITTEE ON THE
ORGANIZATION OF CONGRESS
ONE HUNDRED TfflRD CONGRESS
FIRST SESSION
COMMITTEE STRUCTURE
APRIL 20, 22, 27, 29, 1993
MAY 4, 6, 11, 13, 1993
Printed for the use of the Joint Committee on the Organization of Congress
^^i^y
J(}L3 n
H
'O-'./..-
S. Hrg. 103-74
COMMITTEE STRUCTURE
HEARINGS
BEFORE THE
JOINT COMMITTEE ON THE
OEGANIZATION OF CONGRESS
ONE HUNDRED THIRD CONGRESS
FIRST SESSION
COMMITTEE STRUCTURE
APRIL 20, 22, 27, 29, 1993
MAY
4, 6, 11, 13, 1993
Printed for the use of the Joint Committee on the Organization of Congress
U.S. GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE
^*"18^^ WASHINGTON : 1993
ForsalebytheU.S.GovernmentPrintingOffice
SuperintendentofDocuments.MailStop:SSOP,Washington.DC 20402-9328
ISBN 0-16-040977-2
JOINT COMMITTEE ON THE ORGANIZATION OF CONGRESS
[Authorized by H. Con. Res. 192, 102d Congress]
SENATE
DAVID L. BOREN, Oklahoma, Co-Chairman
PETE V. DOMENICI, New Mexico, Vice Chairman
JIM SASSER, Tennessee NANCY L. KASSEBAUM, Kansas
WENDELL H. FORD, Kentucky TRENT LOTT, Mississippi
HARRY REID, Nevada TED STEVENS, Alaska
PAUL S. SARBANES, Maryland WILLIAM S. COHEN, Maine
DAVID PRYOR, Arkansas RICHARD G. LUGAR, Indiana
GEORGE J. MITCHELL, Maine, Ex Officio
ROBERT DOLE, Kansas, Ex Officio
HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
LEE H. HAMILTON, Indiana, Co-Chairman
DAVID DREIER, California, Vice Chairman
DAVID OBEY, Wisconsin ROBERT S. WALKER, Pennsylvania
AL SWIFT, Washington GERALD B.H. SOLOMON, New York
SAM GEJDENSON, Connecticut BILL EMERSON, Missouri
JOHN M. SPRATT, Jr., South Carolina WAYNE ALLARD, Colorado
ELEANOR HOLMES NORTON, D.C. JENNIFER DUNN, Washington
RICHARD A. GEPHARDT, Missouri, Ex Officio
ROBERT H. MICHEL, Illinois, Ex Officio
G. KiM WiNCUP, StaffDirector
Walter Oleszek, Policy Director
Kelly L. Cordes, ChiefClerk
John F. Deeken, Professional StaffMember
C. Lawrence Evans, Professional StaffMember
Phiup W. Grone, Professional StaffMember
Nicholas P. Wise, Professional StaffMember
Maureen Groppe, APSA Fellow
Carol Hardy Vincent, CRSPolicyAnalyst
Paul Rundquist, CRSPolicyAnalyst
Mary Lou Smullen, SpecialAssistant
Shelley Gough, StaffAssistant
Stacey Spevak, StaffAssistant
DiANNE Lambert, NASA Detailee
<n)
CONTENTS
APRIL 20, 1993
Page
OPENING STATEMENTS
Hon. David L. Boren, a U.S. Senator from the State ofOklahoma 1
Hon. David Dreier, a U.S. Representative fromtheState ofCalifornia 2
WITNESSES
Hon. Daniel P. Mulhollan, Acting DeputyLibrarian, LibraryofCongress 3
Prepared statement 418
Hon. Adali Stevenson, aformer U.S. Senatorfrom the State ofIllinois 19
Prepared statement 452
William E. Brock, a former U.S. Senatorfrom the StateofTennessee 23
Dr. Roger Davidson, former staff member of the Boiling and Stevenson
reform committees 43
Preparedstatement 461
Roger Sperry, Director of Management Studies, National Academy ofPublic
Administration 46
Prepared statement 473
Dr. Norm Ornstein, ofthe American Enterprise Institute 48
Preparedstatement 481
Thomas Mann, ofthe BrookingsInstitution 52
Preparedstatement 481
APRIL 22, 1993
OPENING STATEMENT
Hon. David Dreier, aU.S. Representativefrom the StateofCalifornia 63
WITNESSES
Hon. Dan Glickman, a U.S. Representativefrom the StateofKansas 64
Hon. LarryCombest, a U.S. Representative fromtheState ofTexas 78
Prepared statement 509
Hon. Dan Rostenkowski, a U.S. Representativefrom the StateofIllinois 87
Preparedstatement 516
Hon. Jan Meyers, aU.S. RepresentativefromtheStateofKansas 102
Prepared statement 525
Hon. George Miller, a U.S. Representative from the State ofCalifornia 110
Preparedstatement 539
APRIL 27, 1993
WITNESSES
Hon. Patrick Leahy, aU.S. Senatorfrom theStateofVermont 123
Preparedstatement 544
Hon. Frank Murkowski, a U.S. Senator from the State ofAlaska 136
Prepared statement 549
(III)
IV
Page
Hon. John D. RockefellerIV, a U.S. Senatorfrom the State ofWestVirginia.. 141
Prepared statement 554
APRIL 29, 1993
OPENING STATEMENTS
Hon. Lee H. Hamilton, aU.S. Representativefrom the State ofIndiana 161
Hon. Gerald B. Solomon, a U.S. Representativefrom the StateofNewYork.... 173
Prepared statement 574
WITNESSES
Hon. TonyP. Hall, a U.S. Representative from the StateofOhio 161
Prepared statement 564
Hon. Bill Emerson, a U.S. Representative from theStateofMissouri 165
Preparedstatement 569
Hon. John D. Dingell, aU.S. RepresentativefromtheStateofMichigan 185
Preparedstatement 606
Hon. Gerry Studds, a U.S. Representative from the StateofMassachusetts 202
Preparedstatement 629
Hon. HerbertH. Bateman, aU.S. Representative from the State ofVirginia.... 205
Prepared statement 638
Hon. William L. (Bill)Clay, a U.S. Representative from the StateofMissouri.. 210
Prepared statement 642
Hon. John T. Myers, A U.S. Representativefrom the StateofIndiana 213
Prepared statement 648
Hon. HenryB. Gonzalez, A U.S. Representativefrom the StateofTexas 220
Prepared statement 655
Hon. JamesA. Leach, a U.S. RepresentativefromtheStateofIowa 225
Preparedstatement 664
MAY
4, 1993
OPENING STATEMENT
Hon. David Dreier, A U.S. Representativefrom theStateofCalifornia 233
WITNESSES
Hon. JohnJ. Lafalce, aU.S. RepresentativefromtheStateofNewYork 233
Preparedstatement 676
Hon. Daniel K. Inouye, a U.S. Senatorfrom the State ofHawaii 250
Prepared statement 707
Hon. John McCain, a U.S. Senatorfrom theState ofArizona 259
Prepared statement 722
MAY
6, 1993
OPENING STATEMENT
Hon. Lee H. Hamilton, aU.S. Representativefrom the StateofIndiana 273
WITNESSES
Hon. Pat Schroeder, a U.S. Representative from the StateofColorado 274
Prepared statement 749
Hon. Carolyn B. Maloney, a U.S. Representativefrom theStateofNewYork.. 276
Prepared statement 756
Hon. EvaClayton, a U.S. Representativefrom the StateofNorthCarolina 277
Preparedstatement 754
Hon. G.V. (Sonny) Montgomery, a U.S. Representative from the State of
Mississippi 285
Prepared statement 759
Hon. Charlie Rose, aU.S. RepresentativefromtheStateofNorthCarolina 293
V
Page
Prepared statement 771
Hon. Norman Mineta, aU.S. Representative from the StateofCalifornia 302
Prepared statement 775
Hon. Bud Shuster, a U.S. Representative from the Commonwealth ofPennsyl-
vania 306
Prepared statement 775
Hon. Pat Roberts, a U.S. Representative from the StateofKansas 316
Preparedstatement 842
APPENDIX
Written statements:
Hon. Jennifer Dunn, a U.S. Representative from the StateofWashington.... 747
Hon. HenryJ. Hyde, a U.S. Representativefrom the State ofIllinois 832
MAY
11, 1993
WITNESSES
Hon. E. (Kika) de laGarza, a U.S. Representative from theState ofTexas 325
Preparedstatement 865
Hon. Carlos Moorhead, a U.S. Representative from the State ofCalifornia 339
Prepared statement 871
Hon. David Pryor, a U.S. Senator from the StateofArkansas 346
Prepared statement 878
Reporton the Achievementsofthe Senate Special Committee on Aging 894
Hon. William Cohen, a U.S. Senatorfrom the State ofMaine 351
Prepared statement 881
Hon. Dale Bumpers, a U.S. Senatorfrom the StateofArkansas 361
Prepared statement 925
Hon. William F. dinger, Jr., a U.S. Representative from the Commonwealth
ofPennsylvania 366
Prepared statement 949
Bibliography on congressional oversight 956
Guide to records ofthe House in the National Archives 981
APPENDIX
Written statement:
Hon. JenniferDunn, a U.S. Representative from the State ofWashington.... 863
MAY
13, 1993
WITNESSES
Hon. BobGraham, a U.S. Senatorfrom the State ofFlorida 375
Preparedstatement 1004
Charts, press articles, and lists 1014
Hon. ButlerDerrick, a U.S. Representativefrom the State ofSouth Carolina... 387
Hon. Benjamin A. Gilman, a U.S. Representative from the State ofNewYork. 396
Prepared statement 1019
Hon. Don Young, a U.S. Representativefrom the State ofAlaska 400
Prepared statement 1022
Hon. Dennis DeConcini,aU.S. SenatorfromtheStateofArizona 406
Preparedstatement 1029
ADDITIONAL MATERIAL SUBMITTED FOR THE RECORD
Letters:
To Chairman Hamilton and Vice Chairman Dreier from the Republican
Leadershipofthe House ofRepresentatives 1042
To Chairmen and Vice Chairmen from Hon. Jim McDermott, Chairman,
House Committeeon Standards ofOfficial Conduct 1046
Written statements:
Senator Claiborne Pell, Chairman, Senate Committee on Foreign Relations.. 1049
VI
Page
Representative Jack Fields, Ranking Member, House Committee on Mer-
chantMarineandFisheries 1054
Representative Ronald Dellums, Chairman, House Committee on Armed
Services 1061
Former Senator James Abourezk, Chairman, Senate Select Committee on
Indian Affairs, 95thCongress 1067
Representative Carrie Meek ofFlorida in support ofconsolidating commit-
teestructureas itpertainstochildren 1071
Representative Thomas J. Bliley, Jr. ofVirginia, accompanied by a copy of
the amici curiae briefin support ofthe plaintiffs the case ofRobert H.
Michel, etalv. Donnald K. Anderson, etal 1072
Representative GeorgeW. Gekas, ofPennsylvania 1117
COMMITTEE STRUCTURE
TUESDAY, APRIL 20, 1993
United States Congress,
Joint Committee on the Organization of Congress,
Washington, DC.
The committee met, pursuant to call, at 2 p.m., in room HC-5,
The Capitol, Senator David L. Boren (co-chairman of the commit-
tee) presiding.
OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. DAVID L. BOREN, A U.S. SENATOR
FROM THE STATE OF OKLAHOMA
Chairman Boren. We are going to go ahead and begin. Our col-
leagues in the House have a vote, so they will be having to go to
that vote and then they will be immediately rejoining us.
Today we begin a new set of hearings on an issue that is ex-
tremely important to every Member of Congress: The committee
structure. We have heard already a great deal from the witnesses
that have given us overviews of their concerns about Congress, the
need to make reforms and changes and virtually every statement
that has come from Members and former Members expressing
their worries about what needs to be fixed as far as Congress is
concerned. Committee structure has figured largely in their com-
ments.
Woodrow Wilson a century ago stated that Congress in session is
Congress on public exhibition while Congress in its committee
rooms is Congress at work. And today, and for the next several
weeks, we will be discovering how well that work is being done.
I think it is fair to say that Congress at work in its committee
rooms presents a confusing picture to the American public. Since
C-SPAN began covering the proceedings of Floor activities and
committees, the public has had the opportunity to see firsthand
how we
operate.
But for those members of the public who come to Washington to
A
visit or even testify, they see a very different picture: Floor
debate where a single Member may be speaking to an empty cham-
ber, a committee hearing where the committee or subcommittee
chairman might be the only one in attendance. And that often hap-
pens because there are several compiittees meeting at the same
time or votes occurring elsewhere as is about to happen to us at
this moment.
These are things we hope we can change as we look at reforming
the structure of Congress and the Senate. Today, as we have said
before. Members serve on an average of 12 committees and subcom-
mittees with some serving on up to 22 different panels, so it is not
(1)
surprising that Members run from one meeting to another with
fractured attention and inability to focus on the issues before their
committees as they are debated on the Floor or debated in commit-
tees.
The problems with the committee system are obvious to Mem-
bers: Too many assignments, overlapping jurisdictions, conflicting
structures between the House and the Senate, overlapping claims
by committees and subcommittees on executive branch agencies.
The Joint Committee will see if we can resolve some of these
very entrenched problems. Today we have a full day to kick off our
hearing set on committee structure. The Acting Deputy Librarian
of Congress will present a set of committee reform plans that were
prepared by the Congressional Research Service and were prepared
for the Joint Committee.
The next panel will be two former Senators who chaired the
most significant committee reform panel since the first Joint Com-
mittee on the Organization of Congress in 1945. And finally, we
will hear from a panel of outside experts on the committee system
and their recommendations for reform.
Committee members are interested in this issue. In fact, we in-
vited all chairmen and Ranking Members of the standing commit-
tees to testify on this issue. As of today, 38 chairmen and Ranking
Members want to testify on this issue.
Because of the strong interest in both chambers, we have now
seven sessions scheduled on this issue for the next three and a half
weeks so that these Members can be accommodated beginning this
Thursday.
Now, we do have a full day today, so I would like to go right on,
if none of my fellow Members have opening statements, so that we
can get at as much as we can. Vice Chairman Dreier does have a
briefstatement he wishes to make.
OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. DAVID DREIER, A U.S.
REPRESENTATIVE FROM THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA
Mr. Dreier. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.
I would make one minor correction in your opening statement
when you said many Members have an interest in this. I found
that all Members have a particular interest in this.
Just over the past couple ofdays, I have been hearing from more
than a few of my colleagues in the House who were very concerned
about this bold action that we might be taking in the area of com-
mittee reform and it is going to be a real challenge for us.
I want to say that I appreciate your calling this hearing and I
look forward to the testimony from all of our witnesses and a de-
tailed outline ofall the plans that are before us.
Chairman Boren. Thank you very much. Congressman Dreier,
and I appreciate your constant support for our taking action on
this front. —
When the people look at what we are doing and after all this
institution belongs to the American—people, not to us, we are just
temporary occupants of these chairs and when the people look at
a Congress that can't even for sure accurately count the number of
committees and subcommittees that it has, figures that range
