Activities of federal law enforcement agencies toward the Branch Davidians : joint hearings before the Subcommittee on Crime of the Committee on the Judiciary, House of Representatives, and the Subcommittee on National Security, International Affairs, and

620 Pages·1996·22.2 MB·English

by  United States. Congress. House. Committee on the Judiciary. Subcommittee on Crime

Wmhes im
) of federal enforcement agencies
TOWARD THE BRANCH DAVIDIANS
(PART
2)
Y4.J89/l:104/72/PT.2
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Activities of Federal Lau Enforcene. '-^^-KJ-JN
^ THE
SUBCOMMITTEE ON CRIME
OF THE
COMMITTEE ON THE
JUDICIARY
HOUSE OP REPRESENTATIVES
AND THE
SUBCOMMITTEE ON
NATIONAL SECURITY, INTERNATIONAL
AFFAIRS, AND CRIMINAL JUSTICE
OF THE
COMMITTEE ON
GOVERNMENT REFORM AND OVERSIGHT
ONE HUNDRED FOURTH CONGRESS
FIRST SESSION
JULY AND
25, 26, 27, 1995
COMMITTEE ON THE JUD
Serial No. 72
OCT
; , ggg
Printed for the use ofthe Committees on *e'Jia^556Si^^ffli^^i!j|tofl
and Oversight '""----C^^ISJt/VKSS.'^IJnV'

uw
AcnvmES OF federal enforcement agencies
TOWARD THE BRANCH DAVIDIANS
(PART
2)
JOINT HEARINGS
BEFORE THE
SUBCOMMITTEE ON CRIME
OF THE
COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIAKY
HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
AND THE
SUBCOMMITTEE ON
NATIONAL SECURITY, INTERNATIONAL
AFFAIRS, AND CRIMINAL JUSTICE
OF THE
COMMITTEE ON
GOVERNMENT REFORM AND OVERSIGHT
ONE HUNDRED FOURTH CONGRESS
FIRST SESSION
JULY 25, 26, AND 27, 1995
COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY
Serial No. 72
Printed for the use of the Committees on the Judiciary and Government Reform
and Oversight
U.S. GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE
WASHINGTON : 1996
ForsalebytheU.S.GovernmentPrintingOffice
SuperintendentofDocuments,CongressionalSalesOffice,Washington,DC 20402
lODM n.1ft.nt;'^49fi-7
COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY
HENRY J. HYDE, Illinois, Chairman
CARLOS J. MOORHEAD, California JOHN CONYERS, Jr., Michigan
F. JAMES SENSENBRENNER, Jr., PATRICIA SCHROEDER, Colorado
Wisconsin BARNEY FRANK, Massachusetts
BILL McCOLLUM, Florida CHARLES E. SCHUMER, New York
GEORGE W. GEKAS, Pennsylvania HOWARD L. BERMAN, California
HOWARD COBLE, North Carohna RICK BOUCHER, Virginia
LAMAR SMITH, Texas JOHN BRYANT, Texas
STEVEN SCHIFF, New Mexico JACK REED, Rhode Island
ELTON GALLEGLY, California JERROLD NADLER, New York
CHARLES T. CANADY, Florida ROBERT C. SCOTT, Virginia
BOB INGLIS, South CaroUna MELVIN L. WATT, North CaroUna
BOB GOODLATTE, Virginia XAVIER BECERRA, California
STEPHEN E. BUYER, Indiana JOSE E. SERRANO, New York
MARTIN R. HOKE, Ohio ZOE LOFGREN, California
SONNY BONO, California SHEILAJACKSON LEE, Texas
FRED HEINEMAN, North CaroUna
ED BRYANT, Tennessee
STEVE CHABOT, Ohio
MICHAEL PATRICK FLANAGAN, IlUnois
BOB BARR, Georgia
Alan F. Coffey, Jr., General Counsel/StaffDirector
Julian Epstein, Minority StaffDirector
Subcommittee on Crime
BILL McCOLLUM, Florida, Chairman
STEVEN SCHIFF, New Mexico CHARLES E. SCHUMER, New York
STEPHEN E. BUYER, Indiana ROBERT C. SCOTT, Virginia
HOWARD COBLE, North Carohna ZOE LOFGREN, CaUfornia
FRED HEINEMAN, North CaroUna SHEILAJACKSON LEE, Texas
ED BRYANT, Tennessee MELVIN L. WATT, North CaroUna
STEVE CHABOT, Ohio
BOB BARR, Georgia
Paul J. McNulty, ChiefCounsel
Glenn R. Schmitt, Counsel
Daniel J. Bryant,Assistant Counsel
Tom Diaz, Minority Counsel
(II)
COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENT REFORM AND OVERSIGHT
WILLIAM F. CLINGER, Jr., Pennsylvania, Chairman
BENJAMIN A. OILMAN, New York CARDISS COLLINS, lUinois
DAN BURTON, Indiana HENRYA WAXMAN, California
CONSTANCE A. MORELLA, Maryland TOM LANTOS, California
CHRISTOPHER SHAYS, Connecticut ROBERT E. WISE, Jr., West Virginia
STEVEN SCHIFF, New Mexico MAJOR R. OWENS, New York
ILEANA ROS-LEHTINEN, Florida EDLOPHUS TOWNS, New York
WILLIAM H. ZELIFF, Jr., New Hampshire JOHN M. SPRATT, Jr., South CaroUna
JOHN M. McHUGH, New York LOUISE McINTOSH SLAUGHTER, New
STEPHEN HORN, California York
JOHN L. MICA, Florida PAUL E. KANJORSKI, Pennsylvania
PETER BLUTE, Massachusetts GARYA. CONDIT, CaUfomia
THOMAS M. DAVIS, Virginia COLLIN C. PETERSON, Minnesota
DAVID M. Mcintosh, Indiana KAREN L. THURMAN, Florida
JON D. FOX, Pennsylvania CAROLYN B. MALONEY, New york
RANDY TATE, Washington THOMAS M. BARRETT, Wisconsin
DICK CHRYSLER, Michigan GENE TAYLOR, Mississippi
GIL GUTKNECHT, Minnesota BARBARA-ROSE COLLINS, Michigan
MARK E. SOUDER, Indiana ELEANOR HOLMES NORTON, District of
WILLL\M J. MARTINI, NewJersey Columbia
JOE SCARBOROUGH, Florida JAMES P. MORAN, Virginia
JOHN B. SHADEGG, Arizona GENE GREEN, Texas
MICHAEL PATRICK FLANAGAN, Ilhnois CARRIE P. MEEK, Florida
CHARLES F. BASS, New Hampshire CHAKA FATTAH, Pennsylvania
STEVEN C. LaTOURETTE, Ohio BILL BREWSTER, Oklahoma
MARSHALL "MARK" SANFORD, South TIM HOLDEN, Pennsylvania
Carolina
ROBERT L. EHRLICH, Jr., Maryland BERNARD SANDERS, Vermont
(Independent)
James L. Clarke, StaffDirector
Kevin Sabo, General Counsel
Judith McCoy, ChiefClerk
Jeffrey Wilmot, Professional StaffMember
Bud Myers, Minority StaffDirector
David Schooler, Minority ChiefCounsel
Subcommittee on National Security, International Affairs, and Criminal
Justice
WILLIAM H. ZELIFF, Jr., New Hampshire, Chairman
ROBERT L. EHRLICH, Jr., Maryland KAREN L. THURMAN, Florida
STEVEN SCHIFF, New Mexico ROBERT E. WISE, Jr., West Virginia
ILEANA ROS-LEHTINEN, Florida GENE TAYLOR, Mississippi
JOHN L. MICA, Florida CARRIE P. MEEK, Florida
PETER BLUTE, Massachusetts TOM LANTOS, California
MARK E. SOUDER, Indiana LOUISE McINTOSH SLAUGHTER, New
JOHN B. SHADEGG, Arizona York
GARY A. CONDIT, California
BILL BREWSTER, OUahoma
Ex Officio
WILLIAM F. CLINGER, Jr., Pennsylvania CARDISS COLLINS, Illinois
Robert Charles, StaffDirector and ChiefCounsel
T. March Bell, Counsel
MiCHELE Lang, Counsel
Sean Littlefield, SpecialAssistant and Clerk
(III)

CONTENTS
HEARINGS DATES
Page
July 25, 1995 1
July 26, 1995 283
July 27, 1995 461
OPENING STATEMENTS
McCollum, Hon. Bill, a Representative in Congress from the State ofFlorida,
andchairman. Subcommittee on Crime 4
Zeliff, Hon. William H., Jr., a Representative in Congress from the State
of New Hampshire, and chairman. Subcommittee on National Security,
International Affairs, and CriminalJustice 2
WITNESSES
Arnold,J. Phillip,Ph.D., Reunion Institute, Houston, TX 144
Betz, Anthony, Assistant Special Agent in Charge, Federal Bureau of Inves-
tigation, Baltimore Division 473
Bynies, Capt. David, TexasRanger 143
Cavanaugh, James, former Assistant Special Agent in Charge, Bureau of
Alcohol, Tobacco andFirearms, Dallas,TX 294
Cook, Capt. Maurice, seniorTexas Ranger 142
DeGuerin, Dick, attorney forDavidKoresh 22
Jamar, Jeffrey, formerSpecial Agent in Charge, Federal Bureau ofInvestiga-
tion, SanAntonio, TX 296,471
Marcus, Dr. William L., Toxicologist, EnvironmentalProtectionAgency 389
McCarthy, Ronald, formerofTicer, LosAngeles Police Department 330
McClure, Frank, deputy sheriff, Douglas County, GA 146
Noesner, Gaiy, Supervisory Special Agent, Federal Bureau of Investigation,
Quantico, VA 310
Parks, Hays, Military Law Specialist, DepartmentofDefense 394
Potts, Larry A., former Assistant Director, Criminal Investigative Division,
Federal Bureau ofInvestigation 480
Rogers, Dick, formerHead ofHostageRescue Team, Federal Bureau ofInves-
tigation 478
Sage, Byron, Supervisory Special Resident Agent, Federal Bureau of Inves-
tigation, Austin,TX 302,477
Salem, Hany, Ph.D., Chief Scientist for Life Sciences, U.S. Army Chemical
Biological Defense Command 491
Smerick, Peter, former Criminal Investigative Analyst, Investigative Support
Unit, National Center for the Analysis of Violent Crime, FBI Academy,
Quantico, VA 310
Stone, AlanA., M.D., professorofpsychiatry andlaw. HarvardUniversity 401
Tabor, James D., Ph.D., associate professor of religious studies, University
ofNorth Carolina at Charlotte 144
Uhlig, (Jeorge F., Ph.D., professorofchemistry. College ofEastern Utah 384
Upshall, David, Ph.D., Toxicologist, Chemical and Biological Defence Estab-
lishment, Salisbury, England, accompanied by Paul Rice, M.D., Head of
Pathology and Toxicology, Chemical and Biological Defence Establishment,
Salisbury, England 387
Zimmermann,Jack, attorney forSteve Schneider 19
(V)
VI
Page
LETTERS, STATEMENTS, ETC., SUBMITTED FOR THE HEARINGS
Arnold, J. Phillip, Ph.D., Reunion Institute, Houston, TX: Prepared state-
ment 206
Barr, Hon. Bob, a Representative in Congress from the State of Georgia:
Document concerning arrests of Randall Weaver, Vicky Weaver, and
Kevin Harris 581
Letter dated March 23, 1993, to the Attorney General Janet Reno, from
AssistantU.S.Attorney Bill Johnston 166
Brewster, Hon. Bill K., a Representative in Congress from the State ofOkla-
homa: Letter dated July 27, 1995, to Cherri Branson, professional staff,
Committee on Government Reform and Oversight, from Peter E. Voytek,
Ph.D., executive director, HalogenatedSolvents IndustryAlliance, Inc 410
Collins, Hon. Cardiss, a Representative in Congress from the State ofIllinois:
Pireparedstatement 289
DeGuerin, Dick, attorneyfor DavidKoresh: Prepared statement 102
McCollum, Hon. Bill, a Representative in Congress from the State ofFlorida,
and chairman. Subcommittee on Crime: Interview transcript ofRon Noble
ofCBS on "60Minutes," May 14, 1995 10
Potts, Larry A., former Assistant Director, Criminal Investigative Division,
Federal Bureau ofInvestigation: Prepared statement 586
Tabor, James D., Ph.D., associate professor of religious studies. University
ofNorth Carolina at Charlotte: Prepared statement 246
Thurman, Hon. Karen L., a Representative in Congress from the State of
Florida: Prepared statement 288
Wise, Hon. Robert E., Jr., a Representative in Congress from the State
ofWest Virginia: Curriculum vitae ofDr. Harry Salem 516
Zelifl", Hon. William H., Jr., a Representative in Congress from the State
of New Hampshire, and chairman, Subcommittee on National Security,
International Affairs, and CriminalJustice:
Prepared statement 464
Transcriptof: "The Last RecordedWords ofDavidKoresh" 532
Zimmermann,Jack B., attorneyforSteveSchneider;Prepared statement 129
ACTIVITIES OF FEDERAL LAW ENFORCEMENT
AGENCIES TOWARD THE BRANCH DAVIDIANS
(Part 2)
TUESDAY, JULY 25, 1995
House of Representatives, Subcommittee on Na-
tional Security, International Affairs, and Crimi-
nal Justice, Committee on Government Reform
AND Oversight, Jointly With the Subcommittee on
Crime, Committee on the Judiciary,
Washington, DC.
The subcommittees met, pursuant to notice, at 9:42 a.m., in room
2154, Rayburn House Office Building, Hon. William H. Zeliff, Jr.
(chairman ofthe Subcommittee on National Security, International
Affairs, and Criminal Justice) presiding and Hon. Bill McCollum
(chairman ofthe Subcommittee on Crime).
Present from the Subcommittee on National Security, Inter-
national Affairs, and Criminal Justice: Representatives William H.
Zeliff, Jr., Robert L. Ehrlich, Jr., Steven Schiff, Ileana Ros-
Lehtinen, John L. Mica, Peter Blute, Mark E. Souder, John B.
Shadegg, Karen L. Thurman, Robert E. Wise, Jr., Gene Taylor,
Tom Lantos, Louise Mcintosh Slaughter, and Bill K. Brewster.
Present from the Subcommittee on Crime: Representatives Bill
McCollum, Steven Schiff, Stephen E. Buyer, Howard Coble, Fred
Heineman, Ed Bryant of Tennessee, Steve Chabot, Bob Barr,
Charles E. Schumer, Robert C. Scott, Zoe Lofgren, Sheila Jackson
Lee, and Melvin L. Watt.
Also present from the Committee on Government Reform and
Oversight: Representatives William F. dinger Jr., Cardiss Collins
ofIllinois, and Gene Green.
Also present from the Committee on the Judiciary: Representa-
tives Henry J. Hyde and John Conyers, Jr.
Staffpresent from the Subcommittee on National Security, Inter-
national Affairs, and Criminal Justice: Robert Charles, staff direc-
tor and chief counsel; T. March Bell, counsel for justice affairs;
Marshall Cobleigh, senior policy advisor; Michele Lang, special
counsel; Sean Littlefield, special assistant and clerk; and L.
Stephan Vincze, defense counsel; Committee on Government Re-
form and Oversight: Kevin Sabo, general counsel; Judith McCoy,
chief clerk; Jeffrey Wilmot, professional staff member; Bud Myers,
mmority staffdirector; David Schooler, minority chiefcounsel; Ron-
ald Stroman, minority deputy staff director; Donald Goldberg, mi-
nority assistant to counsel; Cherri Branson, minority professional
(1)
staff member; Ellen Rayner, minority chief clerk; Cecelia Morton,
minority office manager; and Eddie Arnold, public affairs officer
Staff present from the Subcommittee on Crime: Paul J. McNulty,
chief counsel; Glenn R. Schmitt, counsel; Daniel J. Bryant, assist-
ant counsel; and Audray L. Clement, clerk; Committee on the Judi-
ciary Alan F. Coffey, Jr., general counsel/staff director; Dan Free-
man, parliamentarian; Julian Epstein, minority staff director;
Perry Apelbaum, minority general counsel; Melanie Sloan, minority
counsel; and Tom Diaz, minority counsel.
OPENING STATEMENT OF CHAIRMAN ZELIFF
Mr. Zeliff. The joint oversight committees on Waco will now
coTmoedtaoyowridlelr.be a very interesting day, a ,long djay. tWtte uhave panelis
tthhaatt wwiellctaankemousv,eIfboerlwiaervde,, laanted iInttoaltkheedewvietnihngm.yWceollaeraeguheo.peBfiulll
McCoUum, and rather than duplicating some ofthe material, he is
going to talk in his opening statement about what we have learned
so far, and I will quickly talk about where we are going.
From my point of view, as we reach this halfway point, we have
been very committed to getting to the truth, to bringing out all the
facts as to exactly what happened at Waco. We got off to a tough
start in the beginning, but I think that we are really dealing with
substance, and, again, we have learned about some important
Again, Bill will get into these in detail, but in Mr. Rodriguez's
testimony yesterday, I think our hearts went out to him as he ex-
plained in great detail how he tried to warn people that the
Davidians had been tipped off. We will hear more about that today.
We also learned that David Koresh offered to have people come in
and see the weapons. Again, these are the things that we really
wanted to get to the bottom of. We now move into phase two; all
the facts just mentioned, we will get into what happened during
theOn51Mdaarycshth1a,t 1f9o9ll3o,wetdh.e FBI took control,, A*T^tF. was relrievejd off
command, and the FBI and the Texas Rangers began what has
come to be known now as the Waco siege. The FBI-controlled siege
ended with CS gas and a fire that burns in many hearts and
mciomnpdosunTdh,atledfitroe,22whcihcihldrfeonlloawnedd mionrseerttihoann o6f0CmSengaasndinwtoomtehne
burning alive. In just 15 minutes the people who had been on the
other end ofthe telephone were dead.
This week we will ask the Justice Department to answer tougn
questions about their role: What happened that caused this second
tragedy? Who made the key decisions? Why were they made and
on what information? And how can we prevent anything like this
frWomeewvielrlhhaepaprenfirnogm asgcahiolna?rs, lawyers, and eventual„ly Jtanet4. oKeno
herself Did the FBI's negotiators give up? Did internal tension at
the FBI develop between the tactical people and the negotiators.''
Were offers ofsurrender made and rejected? Could the Texas Rang-
ers have ended the siege or assisted in that end ifgiven a chmance.'
Was the crime scene evidence destroyed or tampered with any
way any Waco documents? What were the roles of Mr. Potts, Mr.