Young Black People and the Criminal Justice System

404 Pages·2007·4.07 MB·English

House of Commons
Home Affairs Committee
Young Black People
and the Criminal
Justice System
Second Report of Session 2006–07
Volume II
Oral and written evidence
Ordered by The House of Commons
to be printed 22 May 2007

HC 181-II
[Incorporating HC 1675-i and ii, Session 2005-06
Published on 15 June 2007
by authority of the House of Commons
London: The Stationery Office Limited
£0.00
The Home Affairs Committee
The Home Affairs Committee is appointed by the House of Commons to examine
the expenditure, administration, and policy of the Home Office and its
associated public bodies; and the administration and expenditure of the
Attorney General’s Office, the Treasury Solicitor’s Department, the Crown
Prosecution Service and the Serious Fraud Office (but excluding individual cases
and appointments and advice given within government by Law Officers).
Current membership
Mr John Denham MP (Labour, Southampton, Itchen) (Chairman)
Mr Richard Benyon MP (Conservative, Newbury)
Mr Jeremy Browne MP (Liberal Democrat, Taunton)
Ms Karen Buck MP (Labour, Regent’s Park and Kensington North)
Mr James Clappison MP (Conservative, Hertsmere)
Mrs Ann Cryer MP (Labour, Keighley)
Mrs Janet Dean MP (Labour, Burton)
Margaret Moran MP (Labour, Luton South)
Gwyn Prosser MP (Labour, Dover)
Bob Russell MP (Liberal Democrat, Colchester)
Martin Salter MP (Labour, Reading West)
Mr Richard Spring MP (Conservative, West Suffolk)
Mr Gary Streeter MP (Conservative, South West Devon)
Mr David Winnick MP (Labour, Walsall North)

The following Members were also members of the Committee during the
inquiry:

Nick Harvey (Liberal Democrat, North Devon)
Steve McCabe (Labour, Birmingham, Hall Green)
Mr Shahid Malik (Labour, Dewsbury)
Powers
The Committee is one of the departmental select committees, the powers of
which are set out in House of Commons Standing Orders, principally in SO No
152. These are available on the Internet via www.parliament.uk
Publication
The Reports and evidence of the Committee are published by The Stationery
Office by Order of the House. All publications of the Committee (including press
notices) are on the Internet at www. parliament.uk/homeaffairscom
Committee staff
The current staff of the Committee are Dr Robin James (Clerk), Miss Jenny
McCullough (Second Clerk), Elisabeth Bates (Committee Specialist), Martha
Goyder (Committee Specialist), Mr Tony Catinella (Committee Assistant), Ms
Jenny Nelson (Secretary), Alison Forrester (Senior Office Clerk) and Ms Jessica
Bridges-Palmer (Select Committee Media Officer).
Contacts
All correspondence should be addressed to the Clerk of the Home Affairs
Committee, House of Commons, 7 Millbank, London SW1P 3JA. The telephone
number for general enquiries is 020 7219 3276; the Committee’s email address is
[email protected]
Witnesses
Tuesday 24 October 2006 Page
Ms Camila Batmanghelidjh, Kids Company and Mr Shaun Bailey, Youth
Worker Ev 1
Ms Decima Francis, From Boyhood to Manhood Foundation and Mr Ken
Barnes, 100 Black Men of London, c-a-n-i Consultancy Ev 10
Tuesday 7 November 2006
Reverend Nims Obunge, The Peace Alliance and Reverend Les Isaacs,
Ascension Trust Ev 20
Mr Lee Jasper, Greater London Authority Ev 29
Tuesday 19 December 2006
Jason Lord Cover, Hayley Littek, Dexter Padmore, Leon Simmonds, Bianca
Waite and Julia Wolton, X-it Programme, Lambeth Children and Young
People’s Service Ev 38
Curtis Burk, Cean Johnson and Andrew Porter, accompanied by youth
workers, Nottingham Youth Offending Service Ev 51
Tuesday 16 January 2007
Professor Gus John, Gus John Partnership Ltd and Dr Tony Sewell,
Generating Genius programme Ev 60
Ms Sukhvinder Stubbs, Barrow Cadbury Trust and Mr Marc Edwards, The
Young Disciples project Ev 68
Tuesday 6 February 2007
Mr Roger Drakes aka DJ Dodge, Hip hop producer and DJ, Mr Bob Tyler,
VITV/Channel U and Mr Andy Parfitt, Radio 1 and 1Xtra Ev 75
Mr Melvyn Davis, boys2 Men project and Mr Neil Solo, Babyfather Alliance,
Barnardo’s Ev 85
Tuesday 27 February 2007
Deputy Assistant Commissioner Cressida Dick and Chief Constable Peter
Fahy, Association of Chief Police Officers of England, Wales and Northern
Ireland (ACPO) and Superintendent Leroy Logan MBE, Deputy Borough
Commander, Hackney Police Ev 93
Ms Ellie Roy and Mr Chris Hume, Youth Justice Board Ev 106
Tuesday 13 March 2007
Rt Hon Baroness Scotland of Asthal QC, Minister for Criminal Justice and
Offender Management, Vernon Coaker MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary
of State, and Ms Helen Edwards CBE, Chief Executive, National Offender
Management Service, Ms Ursula Brennan, Chief Executive, Office for
Criminal Justice Reform and Mr Simon King, Head of Violent Crime Unit,
Home Office Ev 114
List of written evidence
Asterisks (***) denote parts of the written evidence which have not been reported at the request of the author
and with the agreement of the Committee.
Page
1 Opinion Leader Ev 133
2 Dr Marian FitzGerald, Specialist Adviser to the Committee Ev 148: Ev 239
3 Ascension Trust Ev 189
4 Association of Chief Police Officers of England, Wales and Northern Ireland Ev 191
5 Shaun Bailey Ev 195
6 Barnardo’s Ev 196
7 Ken Barnes, c-a-n-i Consultancy, and The 100 Black Men of London Ev 200
8 Barrow Cadbury Trust Ev 204: Ev 208
9 Ben Bowling, Specialist Adviser to the Committee, and Coretta Phillips Ev 209
10 BBC Ev 216
11 Centre for Crime and Justice Studies Ev 221
12 Commission for Racial Equality (CRE) Ev 223
13 Crime Concern Ev 227
14 Mr Melvyn Davis, Boys2Men Project Ev 232
15 Mr Roger Drakes aka DJ Dodge Ev 236
16 Department for Education and Skills Ev 236
17 Flipside Ev 251
18 From Boyhood to Manhood Ev 252: Ev 254
19 Generating Genuis Ev 254
20 Dr Jeune Guishard-Pine Ev 255
21 Department of Health Ev 256
22 Home Office Ev 265: Ev 277: Ev 294: Ev 304: Ev 308: Ev 388: Ev 398
23 Professor Gus John Ev 309
24 Kids Company Ev 312
25 Superintendent Leroy Logan MBE Ev 313
26 Mayor of London Ev 329: Ev 333
27 Metropolitan Police Authority Ev 335
28 Metropolitan Black Police Association Ev 341
29 Metropolitan Police Service Ev 346
30 Office of Communications Ev 350
31 Peace Alliance and Black Church Leaders Forum Ev 353
32 Trident Ev 357
33 Mr Bob Tyler, VITV/Channel U Ev 371
34 X-it Programme, Lambeth Children and Young People’s Service Ev 372
35 Youth Justice Board Ev376: Ev 381: Ev 385: Ev 387
36 Janice Williams Ev 388
37 Nacro Ev 389
38 Damilola Taylor Trust Ev 392
39 National Family and Parenting Institute Ev 395
List of unprinted written evidence
Additional papers have been received from the following and have been reported to the
House but to save printing costs they have not been printed and copies have been placed
in the House of Commons Library where they may be inspected by Members. Other copies
are in the Parliamentary Archives and are available to the public for inspection. Requests
for inspection should be addressed to the Parliamentary Archives, Houses of Parliament,
London SW1A 0PW (tel [phone]). Hours of inspection are from 9.30 am to 5.00 pm
on Mondays to Fridays.
Albert Barnes
The Children’s Society
Dr Marian FitzGerald, Specialist Adviser to the Committee: Young Black People and the
Criminal Justice System: The Statistical Evidence [published on the Committee’s website, at
www.parliament.uk/homeaffairscom]
Institute for Criminal Policy Research, King’s College London
Chris Lewis and Tom Ellis, Institute of Criminal Justice Studies, University of Portsmouth
Graeme McLagan
Judicial Policy and Practice Committee, Magistrates’ Association
Mothers Against Guns, and Urban Concepts
The Runnymede Trust
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Oral evidence
TakenbeforetheHomeAffairsCommittee
onTuesday24October2006
Memberspresent:
MrJohnDenham,intheChair
MrRichardBenyon BobRussell
MrJeremyBrowne MartinSalter
MrJamesClappison MrGaryStreeter
MrsJanetDean MrDavidWinnick
MargaretMoran
Witnesses:MsCamilaBatmanghelidjh,FounderandDirector,KidsCompanyandMrShaunBailey,Youth
Worker,gaveevidence.
Q1Chairman:Goodmorning,Ms Batmanghelidjh psychosocial interventions to 11,000 children right
and Mr Bailey. Thank you very much indeed for across London. We work in 30 schools across
joining us this morning. This is the first public London where we deliver social work,
evidence session of our inquiry into Young Black psychotherapy and the arts. We also have two
People and the Criminal Justice System, so we are children’s centres at street level where we receive
very grateful to you for gettingthe ball rolling.As children and young people who self-refer oV the
you will know, Ms Batmanghelidjh, we have been street.
intoSouthwarkinthesummeraspartofanumber
ofvisitstheCommitteeisgoingtobemaking.Asa
Q2Chairman:Thankyouverymuchindeed.Asyou
quick way of introduction to the inquiry, at one know,thisisourfirstsession.Youknowthetitleof
level, a superficial level, the statistics appear very our inquiry. I am going to ask you what is a very
clear,thatwhereveryoulookinthecriminaljustice broadquestionbutwouldaskyoutogiveasprecise
system young black people are overrepresented, a response as you can. What do you see as the
frombeingvictimsofcrimethroughtothenumbers problem thatthe Committeeshouldbeaddressing;
inprisonandthelevelofsentencesandsoon.Onthe whatisthemajorissuewearedealingwithhere?
other hand, as is very clear from the evidence we Ms Batmanghelidjh: I think that the youth crime
havereceived,theinterpretationortheexplanation issue is actually about adult incompetencies. It is
ofthosestatisticsisverycontroversialindeed,with about adult incompetencies primarily in the social
verydiVerentviewsthatwehavereceived:astowhy care agencies that are supposed to intervene on
thestatisticsarethewaytheyare;whatitrepresents; behalfofvulnerablechildren.WhenIsaythis,thisis
whatthecausesortheexplanationsmightbe.With not intended as a criticism of those agencies, but I
suchawidedisagreementitisobviouslydiYcultto am just trying to explain to you that in very poor
identifywhataretherightpolicyresponsestowhatis areas we cannot get cases into social services,
goingon.ThosearethereasonswhytheCommittee educationandhealth.Ihaveactuallysatinmeetings
decidedtoholdthisinquiry.Wecomeintoitwithno wheretheunspokenpolicyhasbeentowaituntila
preconceptions,eitheraboutwhatisgoingon,orthe young person commits a crime, rather than
rightresponses.Wehopethatyourevidencesession intervene robustly, so that they become the
andtheotherevidencesessionswewilltakeandthe responsibilityofthecriminaljusticesystem.Thisis
visitswewillmakewillhelpustobeclearer inour especiallyprevalentinmentalhealthwherethereis
own minds over the course of this inquiry. Thank alimitationofresources.Theydonotinterveneon
youverymuchindeed.Iwonderifeachofyoucould, behalfofyoungpeople,andyoungpeoplethenend
inonesentence,introduceyourselvesfortherecord up in a situation where their lives are so out of
andforthepublic,andthenwewillgetthequestions control they commit crime and end up in the
underway. criminaljusticesystem.Iwouldactuallydescribethe
MrBailey:MynameisShaunBailey.Iamayouth criminal justice system as holding the rejects from
and community worker in the north-west of everyotheragencyandbeingforcedintointervening
London.Iworkinanethnicallydiverseandsocially asalastresort.
deprivedplace.IamaDirectorofMyGeneration,a
charitywhichissmallandbrandnew. Q3 Chairman: Thank you, thatwas very clear. Mr
MsBatmanghelidjh:IamCamilaBatmanghelidjh.I Bailey?
am a psychotherapist with 20 years’ experience of MrBailey:Iseetheproblemasissuesofpower.For
working in the inner-cities. I set up two children’s many, many years now the adults in our situation
charities: The Place2Be and Kids Company. At (and I mean all of us) have given over power to
themoment Iamrunning KidsCompany atstreet children,andtheproblemwithchildrenisthatthey
level. It is a multidisciplinary agency delivering donotunderstandhowtousethatpower.Theydo
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nothavetheemotionalintelligencetodealwithit.I about.Thatiswhytheypopuptothepolicemore,
also see from a policy point of view not nearly becausethekindsofcrimestheydopeoplearemore
enough of the policy is focused on prevention. All concernedwithandaremorevisiblebecausetheyare
the policy is about is punishing children; making onthestreet.
them feel bad about who they are and then being
surprisedwhentheythenactuponthat.Inthewider Q5Chairman:CanIjustpressyouabitonthosetwo
societytheproblemis,asanation,wearecowards things.Areyousayingthatwhatisgoingoninterms
when it comes to telling our children, “No”, and ofcrimelevelsisreallyverysimilartoallyoungwhite
denying them some of the things they would like people or young people of other ethnicities but we
whichareactuallynogoodforthem—andbythatI havegivenyouthisexoticbadge,asyouputit,sowe
meanmediainputandthosekindsofthings.Weare tendtoseeyoungblackpeople’scrimeasdiVerent;
veryweakwithourcontrolofsuchthings. orisitthattherearesomediVerencesinwhatthey
MsBatmanghelidjh:CanIaddtothis.Iagreewith aredoing?
Shaunthatitisaboutdiscrepanciesofpower;butI Mr Bailey: The diVerences are tiny. It is more the
actually think that the children end up stealing exotic nature of black people to the law is much
power from the adults because they feel that the more of an issue than the diVerences—the
adults are not honouring their responsibility to diVerencesaresmall.WhatIwouldsayaboutblack
protect them appropriately and take care of them people is, we suVer from what I call the “Amazon
appropriately.In eVect,thechildrenaretaking the greenfrogsyndrome”.Ifsomethinghappensinthe
lawandthestructuresintotheirownhands. ecosystem in the Amazon the little green frogs die
first—that is us. Our children are involved in all
kindsofriskysexualbehaviourandindrug-taking
Q4 Chairman: Those are two very clear opening
andselling;thesethingsarespreadingupwardsand
statementswhichIthinkwewillbepursuingforthe
weeksaheadintheinquiry.IfwelookatoVending, your children, should you be from a comfortable
middle-class background (and I am making an
asIsaidin myopeningremarks, thestatisticsvery
assumption here), they are next. People from our
clearly show that young black people are
class suVer from these things because nobody has
overrepresented in the criminal justice system. In
addressedtherealsocialissues.
termsofyourownexperience,dothosestatisticsring
MsBatmanghelidjh:IcompletelyagreewithShaun.
trueastowhatishappeningtoyoungblackpeople?
Do you think there are significantly diVering I think one of the things we have done is we have
oVending issues that aVect young black people as ghettoised groups in society. You can see it in the
ghettoisation of Muslims; you can see it in the
opposed to young people from other ethnicities?
ghettoisation of black people. When you
MrBailey?
diVerentiateonegroupfrommainstreamsocietyand
MrBailey:Ifthereareanyspecificissuesthekeyone
you attribute to it individual characteristics, you
for me is that we have made black people look
forcethatgroupintoanidentitythatseparatesthem
exotic.Wetreatblackpeople(andIknowdefinitely
fromtherest ofsociety.Ithinkwhat weshouldbe
because I am a black person) as if they need some
kindofdiVerentrulesystem,somediVerentkindof saying is that we care for all children; all children
should not be committing crime; and all children’s
interactionwiththemforthemtodowell.Youwill
needsshouldbemet.Weshouldnotbeseeingblack
actually find that these problems black children
orwhite.
experienceareexperiencedbytheircounterpartsina
white community who share the same class. What
you will see here as well is that we as a black Q6MrBrowne:Itisaratherbroadquestion,butdo
community have not been challenged to look after you think there are certain types of crime that are
our children. We need to say to the adults that, particularly prevalent among young black people;
“Ultimatelythisresponsibilityisyours.Wewillhelp and,ifso,whichones;andwhydoyouthinkthose
butyouneedtodoityourself”.Wehavegivenover crimes are most attractive or most prevalent to
policy rules which mean that people look to the youngblackpeopleasdistinctfromeverybodyelse?
Governmenttolookaftertheirchildren,andthisis Ms Batmanghelidjh: I think that some cultural
just horrendous because you cannot administer a dimensionsplayapart,inthesensethattheessence
hug from Westminster. Most children actually just oftheproblemisthatchildrenwhoarecommitting
wanttheaYrmationoftheirparents.Thatistheway crime are feeling diminished; they are feeling
weneedtogo.Whythesethingsallleadtocrimeis disrespected. This lack of respect is a real
becausechildrenthengointosurvivalmode;anda fundamentalissue;andhumiliationisafundamental
childin survivalmode isalmost impossibleto deal issue.Thenumberoneagendainthesekids’mindsis
with;youhavegotlong-termissues.Iwouldaddthe toempowerthemselvestoregainrespect;becauseif
caveat,weliveinasocietynowwherepeopleoften youaredisrespectedandyouareperceivedtobean
talkaboutthecorruptionofpoliticiansbutItellyou objectthatisundesirablethenyouaremorelikelyto
this, no politician is as corrupt as our commercial bekilledoVordie—thatisintrinsicinthepsyche.
goings-on. I work and live with a large group of
black boys and the amount of negative press and Q7MrBrowne:Whichtypesofcrimeleadtothat?
negativematerialfunnelleddowntheirnecksabout Ms Batmanghelidjh: There are some crimes related
beingblackfromaveryearlyagemanifestsitselfin to materialistic things which might be more
thekindsofcrimestheycommit,whicharegenerally prevalent in certain neighbourhoods, because the
street crimes and the crimes people are terrorised ideaisthatifyouhavethegold,thecarorthemobile
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phonethenyourpowerratinggoesup.Undoubtedly attainmentlevelsforyoungblackmenaremarkedly
atstreetlevelamongstchildrenwhatyouwearand worsethantheyareforanyotherethniccategory.I
what you have does give you a perverse power wonderwhetheryoucouldteaseoutthedistinctions
rating,whichmeans thatyouaremorelikelytobe between male and female crime categories and
safe.Thisiswhatisveryimportanttounderstand— motivations,especiallybasedonalotofexperiences
itisnotaboutgreed,itisabouttheneedtobesafe. as a young man that you mentioned in your
pamphlet?
MrBailey:Therealissuethereistheactivitiesthat
Q8MrBrowne:Status?
are acceptable for young black people do not
Ms Batmanghelidjh: No, it is about the need to be
interfere with progress in school. School is seen as
safe.WhenShaunsaystoyouthatthesechildrenare
acceptableaswell.Ifyouareayoungblackwoman
in survival mode, even their crimes are about
andyougofarinschoolitisnotheldagainstyou;if
ensuringtheirownsurvival.Itisjustthemechanism
you are a boy it is. With the situations you are
thatisabitmoredowntheline.Itisveryimportant
involvedin,drug-dealingtakestime;robberytakes
tounderstandthatthebulkofthecrimesarenotjust
time;youneedtolearntheemotionalstatethatwill
aboutgreed.Thekidswanttheseclothesbecauseif
allowyoutorobsomeone;youarenotgoingtodo
they have these commodities they are safer on the
that in school. The kind of activities young black
street.
women are involved in, even the ones at the least
MrBailey:Iwouldgoagainthemediaroute.Ifyou
successful endofthescale,pregnancy andthelike,
look at the crimes that black men commit, black
you can make those associations at school. The
boys in particular are presented as dangerous and
kinds of associations you need to make to be
sexy. There is the whole bling culture with black
successful or, as my boys would put it, an “on the
men.Ifyoulistenedtomusicthatouryoungblack
roadvillain”,taketime.Theamountoftimeyouput
boyslistentoyouwouldbehorrified.WhenDavid
intoyourcareeristhesameamountoftimethatmy
Cameronsaidthathiphopmusicwasbadhewason
boysputintotheircrime.
to something but he has not got a clue because he
MsBatmanghelidjh:Toaddtothis,Iactuallythink
actuallycannotunderstandthewordsbeingsaid.If
thatthedivideisdiminishing;weareseeingatstreet
hecouldunderstandthewordsbeingsaidhewould
have said it years ago, because the stuV they talk level a lot more girls being recruited into the drug
trade,butIdonotthinktheyarebeingcaught.They
aboutis utterly horrible. Whatit doesis itsets the
are often used as decoys in cars, as girlfriends and
agenda for what is cool and what is acceptable
daughters, when deliveries are made for drugs but
amongstthatgroupofpeople.Iknowbecauseasa
the police do not anticipate that it is a young girl
youngboyIgrewupheavilyinvolvedinhiphopand
delivering. The other issue educationally is that
watched it change into this horrible animal. The
obviouslyadolescentfemalebrainshaveadiVerent
reasonwhyitisimportantisbecausetheytalkabout
developmentalphasefrommales.Malebrainstend
crimes that generate a certain kind of respect
tosettleslightlylater,andthatmayactuallyexplain
generallybasedonfearandsafety.Ifyouarefeared
some of the diVerences. I do not think this divide
youaresafe.Itisimportantyouunderstandthat.If
standsverymuchmore.Weareseeingnineyear-olds
youarefearedyouaresafe.Thatiswhy youdoit.
deliveringdrugsnow.
There is a whole status thing. If you lived in a
communityandyouhavea“rep”—thisisonething
youwillseerisingupamongstthecommunities—if Q10MrBrowne:Nineyear-oldgirls?
you have a reputation as someone who will act MsBatmanghelidjh:Nineyear-oldgirls.
violentlynormally(whichisthething)youliftyour
statushigh.Iknowboysinmycommunitywhohave
Q11MrBrowne:Thatisobviouslyageneralisation,
farmorerespectthanTonyBlairbecausetheylook
butwouldyoustillnonethelesssaythat,ingeneral,
like they willpunch you. That is whatis going on.
academicachievementforblackgirlsisregardedby
That is why they do those kinds of crimes. That is
theirpeersasbeingcertainlyacceptableandpossibly
whytheycomeintocontactwiththepolicebecause
evenadmirable;whereasforblackboysitisseenas
theyarethekindsofcrimesthatscareyou.Thatis
something which is a source of embarrassment,
whattheyaredesignedtodo—scarepeople.
something you would not want to confess to your
peers,thatyouwerekeentogetonanddowell?
Q9 Mr Browne: Thank you. My second question Mr Bailey: It is not even seen. My boys are not
follows on from that. It was very notable reading saying,“Oh,mygosh,you’vegottwoOlevels,what
your pamphlet, and I thought it was extremely areyouplayingat?”Itisjustnotontheagenda.This
interesting;andone bitthatjumpedoutatmewas istheproblem.Thethingsthatgeneratewhatisdo-
your positive experience about being in the Army able, academics are simply not on the agenda and
CadetForceandthequalitiesyouthoughtthatgave that is part of being portrayed as criminals by the
you. I wanted to try and separate out the media,dealtwithasbeingexoticor,“You’respecial,
motivationsforyourblackwomenandyoungblack we need to sort you out”, and not challenging the
men, also teenagers, boys and girls, and men and black community and their parents to push these
women of that sort of age group. If you look, for issues. Young black men, because of the nature of
example, at education statistics, attainment levels black culture, arrive to school in a very developed
among young black girls are actually reasonably state.OurAfricanrootsmeanwehaveacultureof
high,oratleastthereisnotahugedisparitybetween talking; we talk a lot; we give things through the
young black girls and young white girls; but the spokenword;andwhenyouareasmallchildthatis
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hugelyhelpfultoyourdevelopment.Somethinggoes Ms Batmanghelidjh:I agreewiththat.Thepriceof
wrong they minute they enter school. One of the firearms at street level has gone down. You can
thingsaboutenteringschoolisthattheparent,good actually now put your hands on one for £30–£50.
or bad,is no longerwholly in charge ofwhat goes There is also a mechanism of lending firearms. I
into that child’s head. The two elements there are: think that is really a big issue. You need to
what is coming in from the outside world, understandthatforeveryyoungpersonwhoendsup
advertising, food and music; and also how the in custody, if you look at their history, there were
teachersviewyoungblackmen.Sometimesyouget huge opportunities, multiple, multiple
the impression they are waiting for it to go wrong opportunities,tointervenerobustlyandtheagencies
rather than making an intervention to prevent it didnot.Thisisveryimportantbecauseifyoudonot
fromgoingwrong. understandthat itis asystemic problemthe blame
willalwaysbeputinthechildorintheyoungperson,
orevenintheindividualfamiliesbecause,attheend
Q12 Mr Winnick: I wonder if I could preface my
oftheday,theparentwhocannotparenttheirchild
question, Mr Bailey, by asking you this: one
properly, I guarantee you, has had a history
organisationhadsaidineVectthatweshouldnotbe
themselves.
holdingthisinquirybecauseifwearegoingtohold
any such inquiry it should not specify black
youngsters. Could I just have your comment on Q14 Mr Winnick: I wonder if I could put this
that? questiontobothbutparticularlytoMrBailey.How
Mr Bailey: I understand the emotion behind that, far do you feel that young black people’s
because they are probably feeling, for instance, involvementinthecriminaljusticesystemisaresult
OperationTrident,madeblackpeoplefeelbadand ofgeneralriskfactors,whichhavejustbeenreferred
continuestomakeblackpeoplefeelbad.Thepoint to—poorhousing,poorparentingandpoverty;and
aboutitisthatblackmenaredyingfromguncrime. towhat extent isita matterofculturalchoice in a
Itisthesameasthisdebatehere,itmaymakeyou blackcommunitywhichcontributestothisproblem?
feeluncomfortablebutitneedstobehad.Hopefully MrBailey:80:20.Ifyoulookatmycommunity,my
itwillendatsomepoint.Ifsomebodysaidtome,“Is grandparents when they arrived here were hugely
thisdebateworthy?Isitofanyuse?”Iwouldhave conservative. If my granny was alive today she
tosay,“Yes”. wouldbehorrifiedatwhatisgoingon.WheneverI
doanykindofcommunityworkandItalktopeople
thereisalwayssomeoldblackladywhocomesand
Q13MrWinnick:Thankyouverymuch.Youhave
says, “I don’t know what the world’s coming to.
been working in this area for some time. Your
What’s gone wrong with these children? What’s
booklet which was referred to by a colleague of
goingon?”Whatweareseeinghereisourcultureis
mine,ifImaysayso,isextremelyuseful.Ionlywish
actually very anti-crime; we are very defensive
it could be seen by the organisation that has
against it; but our growing youth culture now is
questionedourmotivesinholdingthisinquiry.How what aVects it. Hip hop, late nights, bad food, no
farhastheprofileofyoungpeople’soVending,beit
disciplineinschoolsandlackofstructuredactivities
blackorwhite,changedsinceyouryoungerdays—
fundscrimefar morethananyculturalactivitythe
notthatyouareparticularlyoldnow,comparedto
black people have been involved in, in the past, or
someIshouldsay;buthowfarhasthatchangedover
willbeinvolvedin,inthefuture.
aperiodofthelastfewyears?
MsBatmanghelidjh:Ireallybelieveinthatstrongly.
MrBailey:WhatIwouldsaytoyouis,ifyouspeak
There is nowhere for these kids to go. The big
topeoplefromacademiatheyarequicktopointout
mistakepeoplemakeisthattheyassumebyhaving
we suVer from no more crime now than we did a
computersandvideogamesthatyouaremeetingthe
hundred years ago which, in my view, is a failing
child’sneeds.Whatthesechildrenneedaboveallelse
because everything else in society has moved on
is human relationships. When you have a youth
hugely. The diVerence now is that people start
provision where there is one youth worker to 20
younger, they go deeper and it spreads wider. The
children or young people with complex needs then
amount of young people getting involved in some
youdonotgetthelevelofdepthofrelationshipthat
veryheinouscrimesisincreasing.Wehavehadbig
isneededtobringaboutchange.
debatesthismorningabouthowmanyyoungpeople
areinthecriminaljusticesystem;yes,therearetoo
many; but what needs to be looked at is who is in Q15 Mr Winnick: Mr Bailey, in your booklet on
there,andwhathavetheydonetogetinthere.The page 24, and you have referred to this more than
stealingofMarsbarsisonething,butmanyyoung once today but I come back to it, you say certain
peoplenowinmycommunityliveinabsoluteterror; kindsofmusic,hiphop,rapmusic,maypromoteor
andtheyhavearmedthemselvesasaresponsetothat condone violence or lawbreaking. If I can put this
terror.IfyoucometowhereIlive,Iam35yearsof point to you: surely there are quite a number of
age,peoplemyagefeelgreat.Theconversationgoes people,whiteaswellasblackyoungsters,wholisten
likethis,“I’msogladI’mnotateenagerthesedays to this sort of music and would not dream for one
becauseit’sdangerous”.Being35savesyou;butthe moment, be they black or white, of going out and
pointisthatifyouare15or16nowyouareinreal causing oVences of any kind. What would you say
painandyoudonotknowwhattodo. tothat?
3617981001 PageType[O] 07-06-0712:27:30 PagTable:COENEW PPSysB Unit:PAG1
HomeAffairsCommittee:Evidence Ev5
24October2006 MsCamilaBatmanghelidjhandMrShaunBailey
MrBailey:Iwouldsayyouarecompletelyright,and divinerighttohaveit,whenactuallyitisnotbecause
the vast majority of people who listen to hip hop theycannotdealwiththeemotionalfallout.Evenif
musichaveneverbeenanywherenearcrimebutthe another teenager never got pregnant again the
problemiswhenIlistentohiphopmusicIidentify emotionalfalloutisverykey,andthatisoneofthe
withtheartist—heisablackmanwhoclaimstobe thingsthatdrivestheirself-esteemupordownand
talking aboutwhere wehave comefrom, and he is leadstocrime.
somethingIwanttobeandIamanimpressionable
15 year-old who wants to be hip. When he talks
Q17 Mr Winnick: We live in a society where you
about“ourjourneyfromslaverytotoday”and“get
cannotjustban,evenifitwasdesirable(anditwould
richbyanymeansnecessary”,Iwillnotusetheexact
notbe),badmusicofwhichwedisapproveortherest
words,“butifanybodygetsinyourwaypopthemin
whichcouldcausetrouble.Whatareyousuggesting
thehead”,thesestarttobethingsthatseemrelevant
toyou.Whenhethenkeepsgoingonandallofyour infact,thattheblackcommunityshoulddofarmore
counterpartssay,“Here’swhathomeboyissaying, inordertostopthissortofhiphopmusic?
thisisthedeal”,itstartstobecomeacceptablemodes MrBailey:Iagreewiththat.Iunderstandwhyyou
ofbehaviour.Itdrasticallylessens[sic]theinstance say you cannot ban it but I happen to disagree.
of you wanting to partake in crime. That is what Whenwearereadyweputmenonthemoon fora
happens; it feels like it has to be done. If you ask joke, so stopping a few ill-tempered rappers
most black boys of school age now how they feel poisoning our children would be fine. When the
about being a “bad man”, they will answer Government were asked to not advertise rubbish
something like, “Well I have to be because it’s foodtoourchildrentheyrefusedandsaiditwould
expectedofme”.Thatissomethingnotjustgivenby cutintopeople’sbalancesheets.Yes,wecandostuV
hiphopmusicbutitisabigpartofit,anditiswhat about it. What has happened, we have been the
thechildrentalkabout.Lotsofchildrenareinvolved victimsofafailed60sexperimentwhichhasmadeus
in something they think is their lives which they believethatwecannotcensor.Weabsolutelyshould
heardoVofarecordbutdonotcomefromanywhere andcouldharshlycensorwhatchildrensee;because
likethatkindofbackground. the most important thing with children is not
actually stopping them seeing the material but
sendingthemessagethattheyshouldnotbedoingit.
Q16MrWinnick:Ihaveheardsomeofthismusic,if
Childrenarealwaysgoingtorebel—thatisfine,let
onlybecausemysonlistened.WhateVectithashad
them do it but let them rebel feeling like they are
onhimhopefullyisnotnegative.Imustsay,having
doing something wrong, and not that it is a divine
listenedtoitatthetimemyview,MrBailey,wasthat
right to go ahead and do it. That is what you see
Iwasrathersurprisedatsomeofthewordingwhich
today.
could,asyousay, haveaverynegativeeVect.You
giveexamplesonpage24aboutgunsandtherestof
it, and the denigration of women. Is that not the Q18MrWinnick:Doyouagreewiththat?
positionaswell? Ms Batmanghelidjh: I actually think that it is an
Mr Bailey: The denigration of women is probably interplaybetweenpsychologicalstatesofmindand
thesinglemostimportantthing.Iamatruebeliever environmental factors that facilitate that state of
inthefamilymodelandthatmodeltakingcareofthe mind. I wouldsayto you thatyourchild listensto
peopleinvolved.Familyformeisyourdirectfamily this music and does not go and commit crimes
and your community family after that. Why the because the psychological vulnerabilities are not
criminal justice system has failed with things like thereinorderforthetwomeetingpointstohappen.
restorativejusticeisbecausethatchildhasnothing The psychological vulnerabilities are children and
to hold onto. They do not have any notion of young people who feel humiliated; who feel
“group”;anynotionofcedingtheirownwantsand ostracised;whofeelthattheyarenotinthemindofa
needs to somebody else; any notion of being caringadult,whothendecide,becausethepowerful
defended or educated properly, most of which will people are not protecting them, they had better be
always come from the family. The Government powerful themselves. Then you look to your
trying to replace that model with rules and environmenttoseewhatthepowerfultoolsare,and
regulationsaregoingtofailhorribly,aswecanseein youusethose.Whetheritisrapingsomeone,usinga
thesituationwearein.Forinstance,wehavetalked
gunoraknife,orrunningadrugbusinessorhaving
about parental education way, way, way too late.
alotofmoney,thetoolsarevaried.Idonotthink
Youneedtoeducatepeopleaboutbeingparentsin
thatjustremovingthetoolssolvestheproblem.At
theschoolcurriculumlongbeforetheyareparents,
one point, when the police response was really
sotheyunderstandtheirpositionasachildandwhat
robust in some of the boroughs, street crime went
toexpectandtheirfuturepositionasaparent.One
downbutgangrapesbehindcloseddoorswentup.
of the key things I see is that we sexualise our
children. That is the single most important thing.
You have had local authorities up and down the Q19 Mr Streeter: This is very powerful evidence
country who go to schools and give children from both of you. We are looking at the causes of
condoms and say they are combating teenage thisproblemandIwanttotackleacoupleofissues
pregnancy. No, they are not. By giving children here,andthefirstoneishousing.Shaun,Ithinkyou
condomsandtheamountofsexualmaterialtheyare saidearlierthatthisisnotsomuchablackissueas
exposedtoyounormalisesexandtheyfeelitistheir a class issue; and that it aVects white kids from a